Great Pods
They Arrested And Strip Searched Me... - Lois McLatchie Miller

Key Points

Children are not born in the wrong body - this is a fundamental truth that led to an arrest in Brussels
Free speech does not exist the same way across Europe as police stated "it doesn't work like that here"
Strip searching and arresting peaceful protesters while ignoring aggressive mob behavior shows concerning police priorities
The UK has made progress on trans ideology issues legally but street-level conversations reveal different dynamics
Europe remains more polarized on gender issues without the nuanced debate seen in the UK
Silent prayer near abortion facilities has led to criminal prosecutions and convictions
Pills-by-post abortion system allows women to abort viable babies at 33-35 weeks without proper verification
UK has effectively decriminalized abortion up to birth through administrative changes during COVID
Only 1% of women support abortion up to birth, yet this is now legal policy
Abortion at late stages requires giving birth to a dead child, causing severe trauma to mothers
Mental health interventions should be mandatory for women seeking late-term abortions as this indicates serious psychological distress
Men have been excluded from reproductive decisions, leading to abandonment of paternal responsibility
Society teaches how to avoid pregnancy but provides no education about family formation or fatherhood
Women are not educated about fertility decline with age, leading to delayed childbearing and potential infertility
IVF is promoted as a solution but often fails and causes physical/emotional hardship
Christian values in personal life are necessary foundation for conservative political movements
Puberty blockers remain available through uncapped drug trials despite being banned
The celebration of unique gender roles and biological differences has been eroded in favor of interchangeability
Full Transcript

Language: en
I was arrested for holding one of the
most basic fundamental truths that we've
known forever. Children are not born in
the wrong body. Their immediate instinct
was to call us fascists. And Chris
asked, "Well, what about our free
speech? We have a right to freedom of
speech here, don't we?" And the police
said, "It doesn't work like that here."
And we were arrested, um, strip
searched, um, put in cells for a few
hours and everything.
Why would you strip search?
If I get criminal charges, it will
change my life, um, quite substantially.
It's quite high cost for free speech.
It's not good.
It's not
It's not good at all.
Lois Mlache Miller, welcome to the show.
Thank you.
Uh good to have you on. Uh we wanted to
have you on for a while, but
particularly more recently because of an
incident you were involved in. So you're
someone who uh campaigns on a number of
issues, one of them being uh trans
ideology. Uh it's an issue we haven't
talked about for for quite some time
really because initially in the journey
of trigonometry we were just
investigating it and kind of going you
know these trans women are real women
what does that mean and how does it work
and all of that and then I think it's
fair to say over time we came to what we
thought was a pretty reasonable position
on that and over time the country came
to Britain at least came to what is a
pretty reasonable position on that you
know outlawing puberty blockers uh
defining what a woman is finally we Oh,
good. We've discovered that.
and now we don't really talk very much
about it because we sort of feel that
it's been dealt with, but you had an
incident recently which shows how much
more there is going on around that and
speech and so on. So, tell us about your
work and and what happened.
Yeah. Well, I was arrested for holding
one of the most basic fundamental truths
that we've known forever. Children are
not born in the wrong body. Um, and it's
one of the most important messages of
our day. And you're right to say that
the UK has come a really long way uh
legally and politically on this issue.
Um but I think sometimes we can just
look at the news stories or our own
Twitter um feed and think that we have
won and not realize what's going on up
in the streets. And so my friend
Billboard Chris um who is has been
working on this for a long time, his
methodology is to go out to take the
conversation outside and to meet people
in their daily lives and to have a
conversation about what's going on when
it comes um to the horrors of child
transition and what we can do to keep
children safe. So he does this all over
the world. I um joined him I've joined
him quite a few times and I joined him
in Brussels um about six weeks ago. Um
we've met we've done this in woke cities
before. We did it in Melbourne,
Australia, one of the most famously woke
cities of all. We were out in Geneva.
Um, typically, even in these places,
it's about 9 to1 support. Um, you
wouldn't know it, but a lot of people
they walk past at least they give you a
thumbs up or normally it's a dad, the
kind of uh middle-aged dads really kind
of uh get on board with what we're
saying and they either stop to to give
us our support vocally or at least just
um make it known to you. But Brussels
was the first time and it was the first
time for Chris also that it actually
been 4 to1 against um it was as if we'd
gone into this vortex where and if you
think about Brussels obviously a lot of
people who go to Brussels go there
because they want to be part of the EU.
So it's a city of activists, a city of
people with an with an agenda
and uh it was about 4 to one against
this message. I got the impression a lot
of people had never even seen such a
message. Um I think we're very lucky in
the way in the Anglosphere that we get
quite a balanced media spectrum on this
issue. If you look, you know, from the
Telegraph to the Guardian, there quite a
range of opinion um on things like
puberty blockers. But I got the
impression that out there in Brussels in
the European media, they just had not
been exposed to this kind of thinking
before. They had not come across these
arguments. And their immediate instinct
was to call us fascists and to yell at
us and to um describe us as Nazis and um
the most horrible people in the world
just because we wanted to keep children
safe from puberty blockers. So we
started to get kind of a little bit of a
crowd around us. A lot of them are
shouting kind of shame on you. Um being
very aggressive saying you know I have a
trans daughter and what you're doing is
you know going to murder lots of people.
And we're like no we're actually here to
keep children safe. let's talk about
what's going on. Let's talk about the
science behind this. Let's talk about
how we can compassionately care for kids
who have confusion. As the crowd grew,
there was two men particularly who were
being very aggressive to me. And they
were middle-aged dads kind of, you know,
as a stereotype, but I don't know if
they they had children, but they that
was their and normally they were for us,
but they started um kind of getting in
my face um trying to take me away from
Chris, trying to mess with the
equipment, um yelling at me. And I
didn't understand all cuz it was in
Dutch, but I got the impression given
some of the English swear words that
were coming out that it probably wasn't
the nicest things that they were saying.
And so eventually we had to call the
police for our own safety. Um when the
police arrived, they take a look at this
scene with two people with signs um and
the recording equipment and this
gathering mob um shouting and yelling
and their instinct was of course to
arrest the two peaceful people and not
the the crowd um who were yelling abuse.
Um it was quite an interesting little 20
30 minutes we had with the police um
explaining what was going on. I I showed
them the camera. I said we're just
talking to people having conversations
and they're like oh you need a permit to
protest. And I said no we're not
protesting. We would have bought 50
people if we were protesting. Here's our
equipment. Here's Borcus on Twitter
doing you know showing him examples. Uh
and I said you wouldn't need a a permit
to have a conversation about the
environment or about Israel and Gaza or
any of these controversial issues. So,
why do I need a permit to be here today?
And Chris asked, "Well, what about our
free speech? We have a right to freedom
of speech here, don't we?" And the
police said, "It doesn't work like that
here." Um, which was I want to think
that he didn't speak English well enough
to express that point. Um, but it was
quite chilling to to hear, "Oh, it
doesn't work like that here in the heart
of democracy in the home of the EU in
Brussels of all places. You do not get a
claim to free speech." Um, they tried to
take our camera equipment away so that
we weren't allowed to film. That's not
true at all. And eventually um they gave
us an ultimatum. Either take down our
signs and obey the mob that was shouting
at us um or keep our signs on, keep
upholding this true message and we would
have to go down to the police station.
So ultimately uh that's what we decided
to do. We went to the police station. We
were arrested um strip searched um put
in cells for a few hours and then
why were you strip search?
I actually don't know. I guess this was
the procedure. Um I didn't I've never
been arrested before and so when they
took us to be searched I didn't question
that this was um an abnormal
seems kind of excessive given the nature
of the alleged defense.
I think so as well and um yeah I have
quite a few questions about things that
happened the way the police acted that
day. Um
I do believe they did go too far in
several fronts. Um but the strip
searching especially I think was
unnecessary. M. So they they take you to
the police station and what were you
arrested for?
Um it actually changed over time. When
we were outside uh we were told that
this was an administrative matter that
we might get fined. Um that it was about
not having permits and we didn't think
that that was right and we thought it
was challen we challenged it but
ultimately we it wasn't a criminal
charge. When we went to the police
station we were then told that it would
be a criminal charge that we were being
charged with disturbing the peace. M
um which they really should have told us
beforehand. Um at that point we we we I
kind of mentally remember accepting that
okay if I get criminal charges
okay it's going to make travel difficult
difficult it's going to make work
difficult it will change my life um
quite substantially it's quite high cost
for free speech but I did kind of just
internally accept it I actually became a
different person for those few hours I
was so calm I'm not my as my husband I'm
a panicker I'm not you know calm by
nature but um I think I don't know God
was missing me or I just kind of got
this kind
um attitude knowing that I was right and
knowing that the police were wrong in
this situation. I just I became very
calm and I thought through the cost and
I was like okay I suppose that is the
cost of what it is. Um fortunately over
the next few hours um that got bumped
down again to the administrative fund
and at the end we left with nothing. Um
so they can still decide to find us
within the next 6 months but I doubt
they will and it won't be a criminal
The thing that I found really
interesting about the case is these men
were behaving in a very physically
aggressive manner. You're obviously a
woman, but nothing happened to them.
I know. I know. I actually when they
were being very threatening, there was
one man in particular. He was trying to
walk me back. He walked me back into
this public square. He was trying to
isolate me from Chris. And um I remember
looking around and looking for other men
who were watching cuz there was a lot of
people watching. And while being like,
"Can you help me?" And um even these
grown men that were watching said they
kept I mean some of them were just
filming and they were they just shook
their heads and they didn't help. And I
thought that was very unprogressive um
for such a progressive society. I like
he was a lot larger than me. He was a
lot taller. Just the visuals of it um
worked in my favor in that sense like
they should have been helped but I guess
because I had this message on that
changed the calculation of who was
victim who was a victim and um they they
didn't help. It must have been a
profoundly shocking event to happen to
you because when you went out to
essentially record social media content,
Yeah. I think the last thing that you
would have expected, look,
let's be honest, it's a contentious
issue even now, you're going to expect
some kind of aggro,
but to be arrested by the police,
I know, I know, I think this speaks to a
larger trend across Europe. Um, and we
do get kind of confident in our message
when it's on the gender issue because
we've had so many wins in the UK. But uh
when you look across the continent, you
know, in Finland, we have a case um I
work for a legal organization called ADF
International. Uh we've had a case there
for the last 5 years where a politician
is on criminal charges charged under uh
war crimes and crimes against humanity
in the Finnish criminal code because in
2019 she tweeted um a question as to
whether her church should really be
sponsoring the pride parade. That has
led to five years on criminal charges
going up to the Supreme Court. That's
just one example. I mean there's across
the continent we see that there are
still this there is still this
censorship um on this issue particularly
when it comes to kids and um there is I
think uh especially on the continent
still a feeling of two camps without
nuance in the UK we kind of have managed
to pull out some of the um more
sensitive issues from this some people
would say well you know it's different
if there's adults but if it's children
they shouldn't be able to make these
decisions at such a young age or we have
a little bit more of a color to the
debate whereas I think in Europe it's
still very polarized um as to who's
right, who's wrong, and if you're not on
my team, then you're on the other team
and you're a bad person.
When I was when I was reading about your
case, it kind of reminded me about the a
lot of countries on the continent's
reaction to CO in that they are far more
authoritarian. We just don't really
realize it
because when you look at the French's
reaction and the Belgians and all the
rest of it and then when I saw the
police's reaction to you and Chris that
is very authoritarian.
Yeah, it was. Yeah. Um and I actually
lived in Austria during the co uh
pandemic and they made it a criminal
offense not to get vaci vaccinated and
they treated those who disagreed um very
poorly. You would get thrown out of
shops and things if you didn't have the
right papers to show that you had, you
know, had second or third shots, etc.
So many jokes.
Yeah, I was suppressing all the jokes.
And what you will not say
that's for the pes
we'll do that on on on subject.
Um, so yeah, I think that that culture
still has such a presence there. And it
was ironic that we were being called
fascists and Nazis
um when we were there, you know, as
dissident really to this um cultural lie
that children can make these horrific
decisions about their bodies at a very
young age. You know, we're giving a
positive message. These kids are
beautiful. Uh they don't need drugs and
scalpels. They just need love and
affirmation to um you know, love the
skin that they're in and to flourish and
thrive as the kids that they're meant to
be. Um whereas you know there's this
cultural lie that they should be taking
puberty blockers and hormone therapies
and even going through surgeries to maim
their bodies in order to be right to be
correct and so like the irony of us
being told that we are the fascist was
really troubling but I think um one
little ray of hope in the whole
experience for me was when there was
when we were really surrounded at the
maximum and there was I don't know a
crowd I'm terrible at estimating numbers
maybe 40 people around us um and they
were all a lot of them were dressed in
black a lot of them were yelling
shamania, but there was this one older
lady that was in the crowd and no one
else saw it, but she just gave me a wink
and a thumbs up. And I think I knew in
the back of my mind that um when this
was all over, I would have support from
like the free speech community in
Britain and things like that. But at
that moment, nobody knew, nobody was
like with us. And just having that one
person gave us a little like reminder
that we're not crazy, that a lot of
people do support us. Um it really gave
us like encouragement and strength to go
on. And also as well there was another
sin sinister element to it which
Billboard Chris they kept the signs.
Yes. I know. Yeah. So that and it's
these signs are they're not that cheap.
I think they kept about £250 worth of
her property and sent them to
destruction. Um which is hopefully
something else that can be challenged.
Um but yeah, I mean literally stealing
the truth and burning it. It's there's
something very symbolic and and bitter
about that.
And did they explain why they kept the
They they just they we asked them
several times. They just said this is
the way the way that it has to be. Um I
got the sense that I mean there was
about 15 police officers came for us
four policemans and some of them one
particular man was very aggressive and
hostile but some of them were not and
they were just following orders. You
know they were just doing their jobs and
I actually don't think that they thought
that we were particularly bad people but
you could see that they were just told
to do these things and they didn't
really question why.
And um I don't know which one's more
concerning. um the ones who were you
know aggressive and hostile are the ones
who just didn't speak up and question
what was happening.
Well, this idea it's it's a very
sinister framework that we have. We've
seen this in the UK as well where
effectively
if you are opposing something or making
a statement about something which other
people choose to respond to by being
violent or aggressive, the person who is
simply there making a a view known about
trans issues or Israel or Palestine or
whatever, they are then accused of being
the ones that are breaching the peace
because it's easier for the police to
arrest one person than to break up a mob
of violent people. Yeah, that's
absolutely true. And I think we even see
it across different issues. Um sometimes
it's the police want to just diffuse a
situation and you can almost kind of
have some sympathy for them in that um
they have maybe had the free speech
training that they need um in order to
know how to respond to that situation.
But other times it does seem just purely
ideological. I think for me the most
concerning examples of censorship that
we've seen in the West lately are um
those who've been criminalized,
prosecuted, um and even convicted for
praying silently in their heads near
abortion facilities. Um so I've worked
on several of these cases um and you
know the first one, probably the most
famous is of Isabelle von Spruce.
Um she was you know arrested in this
iconic viral video and there was nobody
around that day. In fact, that first day
that she went out to pray and she was
arrested, the abortion clinic was
closed. So, there was nobody around even
to be, you know, offended or to be
hostile to her. She was just standing
there with a thought in her head, a
pro-life thought, a thought that went
against the authorities of the day. And
she was arrested for that. And it wasn't
just once, she was arrested twice. We
saw Adam Smith Connor, the army veteran
down in Bournemouth, um, who was later
mentioned by JD Vance in his iconic
speech in Munich. He was arrested and
criminalized and found guilty for three
minutes of silent prayer near an
abortion facility. Again, nobody was
offended. Nobody actually took um
hostility or complained about this. It
was it was the police. It was the
authorities that didn't want someone to
just have this opinion. And I think that
is when censorship is at its most
concerning is when it's not even
responding um to a potential flare up.
It is just censorship for censorship
sake. If you're watching this interview,
chances are you already know how
important it is to think for yourself.
But with the war in Gaza, that is not
easy. The same events are framed
completely differently depending on
who's telling the story. In many ways,
it's become as much of a battle of
narratives as it is a battle on the
ground. Which is why ground news is
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Lo, I want to give you a chance to
address what I think will be a natural
inclination for a lot of people to say,
look, people will always say something
like this. Well, I don't agree with you
being arrested, but why are you going
out there with these signs? Why are you
standing outside of an abortion clinic
praying? Have you got nothing better to
do? You can see where I'm going, right?
Yeah. I mean, why why pray there? Well,
I my answer to that is why pray anywhere
you can pray or think a thought or
express a view on any square mile in
Britain or the West. That is something
that we fought for, we died for. um and
it's the most fundamental principle of a
democracy. When you give up on that and
say it's it's too much trouble to speak
the truth, to have a conversation that's
merely meaningful, then you've given up
on the entire idea and they may as well
just censor um illegally because you've
censored yourself anyway. I mean,
there's very practical reasons for why I
went out, for why Isabelle or Adam pray.
I mean, pro-life people for generations
have stood near clinics to offer help
and support and alternatives to women
who would like to seek other support um
than have an abortion. And that
unfortunately is no longer possible
under the current laws, although it
should of course be possible at least to
stand silently at least to think a
thought to prayer prayer. Um so there's
practical reasons, but there's also just
the fundamental um need to preserve your
right to say anything in a democracy.
And it might be the issue that you don't
like today. Maybe you don't care about
the pro-life cause. Maybe it doesn't
bother you about, you know, kids being
mutilated through uh transgender
surgeries. But if these causes at the
kind of, you know, the first line of um
of defense fall, then it will be your
cause very soon that is censored on the
grounds, you know, in areas of Britain.
So, we have to all stand together or
fall together. I'm I'm getting at
something slightly different though,
which is a lot of people might even
somewhat agreeing with what you're
putting forward just feel like you're
making trouble on purpose and
do do you see what I'm saying? I'm I'm
not saying I agree with this point of
view, but I I do I can hear that
it's a provocative gesture.
Yeah. It's it's like you go out and into
the public and say something that you
know is controversial even even though
you believe it to be true.
You are naturally then going to produce
an angry response. And isn't it some
people might say the police's job to
kind of deal with that and prevent you
from being hurt. I mean arresting you
falls apart pretty quickly but I'm
trying my best to steal
man. Sure. Sure. Um well I guess that
when an issue is particularly important
and you can think of different issues
throughout history um that have been
overturned through conversations through
advocacy you know you can think of
slavery it was so normal um you know
back in the day it was what society was
built on but it was through
conversations it was through speaking up
uh that things like that fell and now we
were faced with controversial issues of
our day but why are they controversial
often because they involve an element of
right and wrong
um and if we cannot grapple with those
um ideas amongst ourselves in the public
square um then we're just going to leave
it to what politicians like you know
they they depend on votes they depend on
if we cannot get these messages of truth
out then we can never challenge things
that are wrong and I think it's wrong um
to tell a kid that they're born in the
wrong body I think it's wrong to entice
them along a path um that will give them
um permanent bodily damage um and lead
them into something that is often um you
linked to um serious mental health
consequences as well. I think it's so
wrong to push kids along that path. If
we cannot speak out about it, we cannot
have those conversations onetoone in
public then we can never get that
message across. That's why it's vital.
So you're bringing the convers you're
forcing the conversation about these
issues into the public debate which it's
a fair fair enough point I suppose. Um
it's interesting this thing about the
wrong body. I I did an interview with a
big uh Russian YouTuber uh and he
challenged me on this because he turned
out not to agree with my view on it.
Um and in Russian it it's not the wrong
body. The the phraseiology because of
the way Russian works it has to be
someone else's body. And when I heard
him say it in Russian I was like this
makes even less sense than it does in
English. Ironically he cut out that
whole discussion from the interview. Um,
but I I look, why do you think people
are so angry about you making this
statement in public? Like I mean, people
might disagree, but why does it make
them violently angry? Do you think? I
think when it comes to something
as harmful as potentially damaging, if
I'm right, if the science is right, if
if my message is true, then it means
that a lot of people have participated
in something that's actually been
extremely harmful for either their kids
or they've supported it for other
people's children. And that's really
hard to reconcile with.
And I I can totally understand that
that's a very sensitive issue. But we
can't therefore because it has been done
just perpetuate this on forever because
we don't want to reckon with what has
gone wrong. Um and I understand that a
lot of people have acted under false
information or false understandings of
what the right thing to do is. But if
we're not open to be cha being
challenged about um having potentially
done the wrong thing, we'll never be
able to stop that for someone else's
child happening. So there was somebody
who came who was aggressive to us who
was who said I had a her kind of refrain
was I have a transd daughter um and so
obviously she's committed to that
worldview and if she got it wrong if I'm
right then she has caused harm to her
So it's difficult it's sensitive it can
make people angry I think because of
that. Um but that's not a reason not to
have the conversation that's not a
reason to suppress the truth.
I agree. I think also the thing is as
well I think people have realized
looking back on social justice movements
you know gay rights etc etc you know we
got a lot of stuff wrong
we got a lot of stuff wrong and so I
think people overcorrected on this
particular issue and they see it as a
moral crusade without actually looking
at the facts of what is actually going
yeah we're we're often blind to our own
we kind of a lot of people And you know,
we're all guilty of this. We'll come up
with our ideology first and find the
facts to sit in the narrative. But I
think with and we've been um so
privileged in the UK to see the evidence
that's come out of the Tavistock clinic.
Uh the link between um children who
think they're transgender and who have
autism. I think it was 90 according to
Hannah Barren's book, 97.5%
of kids at the Travis Clinic had some
other situation going on like bullying,
anxiety, um depression, etc. and over a
third of them had autism whereas only uh
less than 2% of kids in the country have
autism and so
not anymore
everyone's got autism now ADHD
kids for adults that's right um but um
yeah so we've seen this evidence in bulk
we've seen how that's um had a result at
the Supreme Court we don't really have
an excuse not to know the facts and the
science anymore
um and I can't remember exactly what
your question was
sorry that's my bad. I sided you with my
silly joke.
It's essentially when we look at
previous social justice movements, civil
rights, we look back and go, "Oh, we
kind of made a few mistakes on this
So, this is another compensation I think
is what Francis
Yeah. Uhhuh. So, yeah. So, we're we're
scared to um to challenge dominant
thinking. We're scared to challenge the
kind of wave of um if you can identify
as this and that, the other, why can't
you identify as a boy, why can't you
identify as a girl? Um but yeah but it's
it's easy to get
sorry to interrupt. But I think what
Francis is saying is something else
which is a lot of people are aware that
uh they end they might feel that they
ended up on you you might you might be a
little young to to feel like this but a
lot of people might feel that there were
periods in in the past when the majority
of society the dominant worldview was
insufficiently
compassionate and understanding and uh
willing to incorporate perspectives of
people who were not like them. And
there's a fear of making those mistakes
again which is I think where maybe some
of the motivation is also coming from.
Yeah. Exactly. And I think there is
amongst the kind of boomer generation um
more of a um propensity to that view to
not speak out. You see a lot of support
I guess amongst that generation for um
being on the right side of history
um and not questioning whether this
really is the right side of history if
we really have gone too far. Um there's
got to be a point which kind of um
liberalism kind of hits the buffers and
we see the harms and it's okay to course
correct and to um say that you know if
yeah to course correct and come back and
say we've gone too far we're harming
kids we're harming people let's see you
know if we can bend back a little bit
into something that's safer. I'm
actually genuinely proud of because I
think Britain has actually led the world
in this conversation, in this
discussion. And look, there's of course
there's toxic elements to it, but the
fact that you had brave people on the
left like JK Rowling, uh, Labor, female
Labor MPs or former Labour MPs now like
Rosie Duffield showed that it wasn't a
bipartisan issue. This was about
children's safety. It was about female
The problem I think comes when people
classify as a left or right issue.
And that's very much the case in
America. Is that the case across Europe?
I think more so. Yeah. Um and yeah,
we've been so lucky to have these
immense spokespersons on both sides. But
I think um a lot of the people that were
in Brussels that day accused us of being
American. And actually neither of us
are, although we both sound American. I
am Scottish and and Chris is Canadian.
And but the the initial reaction was
like, "Oh, you're American fascist." and
they obviously have only ever seen this
debate through the prism of
the kind of extremes um or yeah the the
more American polarized version of it u
which when reported on in Europe um is
reported on as good and evil um with you
know the Democrats being the side of the
good in a lot of European media and so
that kind of narrative shape has
infected a lot of the thinking and and
reduced willingness to look at the
actual science and evidence and to come
up with people's own opinions
and what do you know what the EU's
approach to this is because that would
be genuinely fascinating.
Yeah. So I think the EU itself doesn't
have competence on this area. It's a
nationwide it's it's a national issue
which ultimately is scared um allowing
countries to make um their own mind up
on it.
I mean the EU can obviously um show some
ideological favoritism uh when it comes
to I believe there was just a few weeks
before we went to Brussels. fact um I'd
actually Chris had tweeted about um this
scene coming out from me the um I think
it's Bristol Vander Lion's Twitter with
like trans pride flags and that had
actually um sparked us into thinking oh
it might be worth going to Europe to
have some of these conversations on the
street and to meet with some European
politicians and to to challenge some of
this thinking. So clearly there is a
kind of ideological bias within the
institution but thankfully that doesn't
set policy um at the moment within
and I also think as well I mean Europe
is coming to its own reckoning with a
lot of progressive policies for instance
mass immigration which is proven
unfortunately to create a lot of social
problems. I think more and more people
are starting to wake up and realize just
because something sounds good doesn't
mean it actually is good or has positive
real world implications. Yeah. Yeah. I
think that's right. I think there is a
stream towards that. It's tough because
we have to bend back a lot of the kind
of journey to extreme liberalism that
brought us here. I think um there was
this might be a bit controversial but um
in the kind of 60s in the sexual
revolution um we had this kind of birth
of feminism or the spurt of feminism
let's say um which said um women are
just as good as men if not better. Um,
women can do anything a man can do. A
woman can be a CEO and a boss and behave
like a man and um have, you know, like a
strong commitment like a man would do in
a stereotypical situation and be this
kind of Carrie Bradshaw, Sex in the
City, male-dominant lifestyle. And that
kind of thinking of woman and men are
just interchangeable. we can act like a
man has kind of led us on this path to
now say I mean if a woman can have
everything a man can have a woman can be
a man why can't a man just literally be
a woman why can't a woman just literally
be a man
and it's it's tough to reckon with and I
know a lot of the uh people who have
championed this cause are feminists so I
know that's it's a tricky thing to
reckon with um but I think we have um
disintegrated so much what it means
positively to be a woman what it means
positively to be a man and celebrate the
differences between them the kind of
complimentary differences is that we
struggle to unpick socially why it is
that um this ideology doesn't work.
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It's kind of on brand for me, but I'm
only asking because it doesn't make much
sense. I don't understand the logic of
we told women they could be everything
uh that a man is to then them some of
some people thinking well you can
actually become a man that doesn't make
sense to me cuz one is about well look
at you like you have a career you're out
there working just as much as your
husband is right you're doing all these
things but I don't understand the leap
from that to well suddenly I want to cut
my breast off that that's a little bit
far for me
no I mean and there's incredible like
I'm very grateful for the opportunities
I have absolutely but I think there's an
ideology which has said um and has
disintegrated the things that women used
to celebrate being a woman for. So you
very seldom hear motherhood being
celebrated today even though motherhood
is an intrinsic part of being a woman
and something only a woman can do. That
doesn't mean that every woman has to be
a mother but it is a wonderful part of
being a mom and and to be involved in
family life. These things are kind of
seen as secondass women now, whereas the
first class women are seen as the ones
who are out there being CEOs and boss
And again, there's nothing morally wrong
with either of these things, but I think
we've just disintegrated
the celebration of the uniqueness of
being a woman. And then also the
uniqueness of being a man. And there's
things that men can do that women can't
do. Um there's strengths that men have
physically, but also, you know, in
different areas of life, um that women
don't have. There are biological
differences. There are psychological
differences. You see that in parenting,
right? Like a woman uh will be much more
the nurturing parent to the small
newborn and the dad is the one that's
more like to be throwing them up,
teaching them different skills.
So men and women are different and
that's a good thing and there's lots to
be celebrated from that by erasing that
by saying they're just the same. They're
just um anyone can do anything.
then it's everything's interchangeable.
That makes more sense. And I think that
has led us on a path you know over many
decades now to have this ideology of
like well if we now have the technology
that if someone really wants to be a man
instead of saying this woman is a great
uh has great leadership skills they said
well she has a great leadership skills
so she should be a man and therefore
make the technological leap to be a man.
Um and so yeah, we've kind of ended up
with this confusion of gender, this um
wreck of what it means to have yeah kind
of a human difference and biological
sex. Uh that I think we've lost a lot.
Look, I I completely agree.
Back to the kitchen you go.
But to me, the look the women's rights
aspect of this conversation is obviously
important. you know the talking about
feminism very interesting but to me the
most important thing about this
conversation was is the kids
and what is happening to the kids
as somebody who worked with children for
12 years this idea that a child
can identify as another gender and
suddenly they're able to consent to all
these medical interventions to surgeries
to me was quite frankly demented.
Yeah. Yeah. It absolutely is. And uh in
the UK although we've gotten rid of
puberty blockers for now, we have we
still have this um upcoming drug study
drug trial which will allow it has it's
capless and um allows basically it's a
gateway to allow any children who want
to experiment puberty blockers to join
this drug trial and um have access to
them and still have this bodily harm
done to them. Even the puberty blockers,
they can cause, you know, bone density
damage, heart problems as well as the
psychological effects and the long-term
um pathway to um harmful surgeries.
Just to stop, what about the
sterilization aspect of it? Is that is
that also a thing?
Yeah. Uh if it goes on long enough and
obviously of course one thing leads to
another um which will take but
sterilization can yeah occur um after
prolonged use of puberty blockers. So
what you're effectively saying is I
thought that we we'd put this
conversation to bed and actually kids
and puberty blockers that is never going
to happen again because of the cash
Unfortunately not. I mean it is um it
was great to see the Labor government
come in and put in that puberty ban. And
Hamza Ysef from Scotland also, you know,
quite a left-wing politician, he banned
it up in Scotland under his leadership
as well. Um so that was exciting to see.
But with this drug trial coming in in
the UK, that will allow this to
continue. And so I have a concern that
we're not quite at the victory moment
that we think we're at yet. We still
have a lot of work to do. Um we still
have to um I would like to see this drug
trial canled. Um but I'd like to see
this conversation um continue so that
nobody forgets about this damage that
can happen. you know, the sterilization
of kids, uh, the harm to their bodies,
the harm to their psychology, and just
that fundamental lie that they're not
who they're meant to be.
But I don't understand, right, there was
a report came in. It advised that
puberty blockers should be banned. This
is by one of the most prestigious uh,
pediatricians in the country.
I thought the I thought we'd won. What
do you mean that there's a drug trial
now? How's this been allowed to happen?
A lot of people don't know about it. uh
and so maybe it hasn't had the scrutiny
um that it deserves um and it hasn't
come into force yet. Um but I'm very
very concerned about it and it's not
even just the cast report. We then only
a few months ago had an American version
of the same saying the same thing as the
cast report. This is and we've had the
same uh evidence come out of Sweden,
Finland, um across many of the kind of
northern European countries, they've
produced these reports as well that show
that it can be harmful to have these
drugs. And yet somewhere underneath
there's still a push. there's still um a
movement to try and and liberalize um
this um law for kids. And so we have to
stand really firm and we have to have
keep having this conversation. We have
to keep talking about the harms that
this can endure and talk about how
perfect and beautiful kids are in their
own bodies um in order to prevent this
coming, prevent us turning back the
clock. It's the victory isn't sealed. We
have to keep going.
And you say that there's been this push.
I mean, is it organizations like
mermaids? I mean, where is this coming
from? Surely every rightthinking person
now looks at this and goes, "This is an
abomination."
I think there's still I mean, a lot of
the PR um kind of battle has been won on
this issue, but I think there's still a
lot of people within uh places of power
who hold a different view that are maybe
just biting their time. Um winning the
PR battle is so PR battle is so strong,
but it isn't everything.
I mean that is I look the work that has
been done on this by lots of different
people gender critical feminists and
pediatricians and all everybody is it's
been incredible but it's slightly
disheartening to hear that it's
continuing and that there are these
people in positions of power who are
still pushing this narrative.
Yeah, I know it it's very disheartening
because it seems so obviously true,
right? It seems like the most important
message of our generation and the most
critical message um children shouldn't
be having these harmful drugs.
And the point of this trial is to
establish whether it's harmful or not.
The cast report actually unfortunately
left the door open for this. Um it said
that there can be um studies carried out
to test further if the puberty blockers
uh cause harm. Now the US study from H
health department of health and human
services said that there shouldn't be a
trial. They said that this this stuff
was so dangerous and so immoral that it
wouldn't be right to test it on.
This is like human experiments really,
isn't it?
Yeah. It's human guinea pigs. And so the
US report has said don't do it. But the
cast report said it is okay to do it.
And so we've been left in this difficult
situation in the UK. So we need, you
know, someone firmer and stronger to
come in and say no, to look at this
evidence and say we we don't even want
to test this. It isn't right to test it
on a child. No child can fully consent
to that. they can't consent to being
infertile at 30 years old. You know, I
when I was in Australia talking to me
Melbourne students who are very woke, um
they, you know, at 18 were like, I don't
care. I don't want to have kids anyway.
Um but when people get to, you know, 30,
35, they're saying, "Give me kids or
give me a divorce." You know, it's it's
a total change in lifetime. Is a 18 to
35, you're almost a different person um
in terms of your views and your desires.
Um, and especially if you're taking
these drugs at a younger age, 18. If
you're taking them at 13 or 12, how are
you ever going to know what you want?
It's incredible. It's unfair to put that
responsibility on a child. And that's
why all these drug studies must end. And
especially, you know, we have to not
only continue this in the UK, but around
the world. We want to see puberty
blockers banned in every single country.
And how many kids are involved in this
So, it's capless. So I mean it's not uh
begun yet but once uh started there's
currently no cap on how many children
can take part.
So potentially hundreds of kids can take
it and
so but there is still time to for it to
be prevented from going ahead. Well I I
hope people are listening to that and
and find learning about that. Lo, the
other part of your work that we wanted
to talk about and look we we've had uh
for full disclosure uh on the subject of
abortion we had an RA who is very uh
supportive of that being available to
women in this country uh and we've had
your husband Callum Miller on the show
to talk about the uh pro-life position
or anti-abortion position whatever you
might want to call it. And uh I I I
can't say that either Francis or I came
away from those two discussions with
like a position firmly in one camp or
the other.
I won't tell Callum.
Well, he's probably watching.
But but at the same time, you know, my
view has always been that kind of where
we were in Britain was a very unpleasant
and messy, unfortunate compromise that
was probably broadly reflective of the
wishes of the people of this country.
And while you know people who are very
pro-life like you would not like it,
there were also very kind of firm
pro-abortion campaigners that might not
like it. It was kind of a settled issue
in this country. You might not think
that's a good thing, but you get what
I'm saying, right?
And now
what we've got now, the Labor government
is just basically ma decriminalized
abortion up until birth.
Yeah. And I'm someone who really doesn't
want to be talking about this issue, you
know, just I it's not an issue I'm
particularly like keen to to get
involved in. I'm going, "What the [&nbsp;__&nbsp;]
are you doing?"
Yeah, I know.
What's going on?
I think a lot of people feel like that.
It's crazy.
that is crazy.
Up to birth, what are you what are you
talking about?
So So what happened?
Yeah. Yeah. So I mean I think a lot of
people have reacted like you reacted
because we had as you say an abortion
lot 24 weeks. Most people in the country
didn't actually know when it was and
they knew it was somewhere in the
middle. 24 weeks is actually quite high
for the average person. Um, according to
poly polling, when finding out it's 24
weeks, which is double the EU average.
Most EU countries are at 12 to 15 weeks.
70% of women actually wanted to see that
lowered because at 24 weeks is a viable
child. There's a lot of characteristics
which people would want to protect. Um
and so actually the majority of people
wanted it lowered and only 1% of women
actually wanted to see abortion up to
birth and yet um now we have this
situation which was catalyzed during
COVID because they introduced pills by
postabortion. So this was a scheme where
within the first 10 weeks of pregnancy,
you could call up an abortion provider,
say in less than 10 weeks, and you would
receive pills to do your own abortion in
your own bathroom, which actually seems
to me like one of the reasons that we
brought in abortion in the first place
was to avoid women doing it to
themselves by themselves.
Doesn't seem safe or dangerous to me.
And in fact, there was a lot of
investigations to show that it increased
um the likelihood of people needing an
ambulance, needing medical care after.
But this is the situation that was
brought in. Unfortunately, it's both
easy to mistake how far you are in a
pregnancy. It's also quite easy to lie
about how far you are on in a pregnancy.
And so, there were some cases of women
who would call up at 33, 35 weeks,
really near the end of pregnancy, say
that they're less than 10 weeks after a
short conversation, receive these pills,
and carry out an abortion on a viable
healthy baby. um in a very horrific
circumstance. Of course, you need to
birth that child after you've taken
those pills. There was a very famous
case called Carla Foster who birthed her
dad baby. She later called her Lily. She
talked about the traumatic experience it
was. And she um did face prosecution for
what she had done to this child because
abortion at 33 to 35 weeks was illegal.
um instead my response to the tragedy of
what happened to Carla and her baby and
for the few others that it affected in
terms of other um women uh engaging in
this illegal action was my goodness we
need to we need to end pills by
postabortion. So to protect women the
law is there not to criminalize but also
to protect to protect women for being
this situation. No one should be
delivering their dead child alone in
their bathroom. This is horrific. Um and
no child should have to face you know at
that stage very pain capable very
sentient would have faced a horrific
death um as a a baby at 35 weeks as
well. So that's what I thought, you
know, protect the law, strengthen the
Other people thought, well, let's get
rid of the law so that women who do this
at this stage don't face prosecution.
And so what we will likely see now is
instead of this affecting um a small
percentage of women who take this action
towards the end of their pregnancy, it's
now not criminalized. There's no law to
deter women from engaging in this. So it
could be that we see an increase now in
these um babies being lost at this very
late stage in pregnancy.
It's also horrible for the women. I I I
know people who've had a miscarriage
fairly early on in the pregnancy for
whom that and the process I won't go
into details but very very physically
challenging sometimes life-threatening
actually. Yeah,
we I even if you even if you think
abortion should be available to whatever
point, I don't think you'd want to
encourage people to do it themselves
without medical support,
In this way where there's also, as you
say, no verification of the age of the
the P. I just I don't this isn't right.
Yeah, I know.
This really isn't right.
I know. I know. And so now we're in this
ridiculous scenario where you can do it
to yourself at the latest and most
dangerous stage of pregnancy, but a
doctor can't help you. And so obviously
the next step for that movement is going
to say well we must legalize it for
doctors as well and therefore we just
have no abortion law left in this
country. It will be up to 40 weeks for
any reason which actually is very much
out of step with the majority of
polling. Very few people think it should
be for any reason at all.
Very very few people think it should be
up to birth. You know if you think about
if you've seen the newborn baby it
doesn't look very different the day
before. It's just in a geographically
different place in its mother's womb.
But to say you know on that day a baby
in that morning waking up could be
killed or could be born you know on one
day it's I think it's actually good for
us as a nation to be face to face with
the level of evil this is the level of
depravity this is that we've allowed
ourselves to kill babies at this stage I
think we needed that wakeup call and
maybe now we can kind of reconsider is
this really what we want do we
I can't imagine look I think It's very
important to distinguish between
legalizing abortion, which is not what's
happened, right? But you explained it
very well. But nonetheless, I can't
imagine the majority of people in
Britain or even a significant minority
of people in Britain want the want women
to be getting a pill through the post
that they take and even even if the baby
is almost ready to be born,
do you want to prosecute women for it?
you probably should just not allow
people to to have an abortion by post.
That's probably what you actually should
deal with.
But I just I I I I don't understand how
this has happened. I I think it's really
I think it's really terrible as well. I
mean, at that stage in pregnancy, you
have to give birth to the child anyway.
People kind of think that abortion is
like a magic pill that just disappears
the child. You have to deliver that
child dead or alive. So why not if you
don't if if you're in a situation where
you cannot take care of that child can
you not allow them to live and find you
know adoption is an option can we allow
them a chance at life do we have to kill
the child at that stage it's perfectly
healthy perfectly viable
it does it's it's so difficult to come
face to face with yet here we are as a
nation that's what we've decided that we
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I you know for a society that is
obsessed with mental health and
constantly bangs on about mental health
to the point where everybody is now sick
of it.
You go, do you not worry about the
mental health of a mother who is maybe
weeks or even days away from having a
baby and then orders those pills?
If that's not a cry for help, I don't
actually know what is.
Yeah. Uh in fact a pro-choice scholar um
David Ferguson from Australia he's one
of the leading pro-choice scholars but
he he's passed away now but he did
research on mental health and abortion
and showed that actually um abortion can
increase someone's risk to suicidality
by 70% and drug abuse by almost 300%.
You know it's um an incredible it's an
incredibly traumatic event to go
through. I think in our kind of
propaganda and our rhetoric today, we
minimize this as just, oh, it's just
someone's choice. It's just a pill that
they take. You know, it's just like
getting a tooth pulled is what I've been
told multiple times. It's not it's a
it's a incredibly traumatic life event
which ends the life of one of the people
involved. And I think because we don't
take it seriously, we've allowed
ourselves to get to the situation
because if it's not a life, if it's not
a life, then it wouldn't matter, right?
If it's yeah, if it's not a life, then
it doesn't matter if it's 24 weeks or 40
Um, but if it is, then this is the most
serious and grave situation that we find
ourselves in. And I think we have to
reckon with that as a nation and and
think, do do we want this? Do we want
abortion after birth? Do we think that
babies do not count because they are
smaller or weaker or dependent on their
mother? Is that the kind of human rights
framework that we subscribe to? or do we
want to have to give people a bit more
value just based on the fact that
they're human just based on the fact
that they are, you know, a member of our
species, a member of our race, can we
protect them and find better for those
babies and for their mothers instead?
But I and I and I take the point about
the baby, but I think my point was
something else, which is if look having
a child and I've seen friends go through
it and it's it's profoundly stressful
particularly for the mother, you know,
postpartum depression, hormones all over
the place.
There should be a mental health
intervention. If a woman is saying with
her a matter of weeks to go that she
wants to abort her baby, there is
something very serious happening
mentally. Yeah.
Exactly. Exactly. And I think because
abortion has become so trivialized, I
think, you know, even this is the most
extreme case of it, but I think all
along the journey with abortion, it's
often seen as just a, oh, you're in
trouble or you're distressed, you're
worried about this pregnancy, let's take
an abortion pill. You know, it's seen as
just a really quick reliever, a really
quick solution. And that, you know, at
those that can be a cry for help early
in pregnancy as well, but especially
late on. You're absolutely right. If
they have carried this child for 35
weeks and they want to just take a pill
to um to end their life, it does make no
sense. And and we should have much more
serious mental health safeguarding
within this um kind of area or this kind
of industry, this abortion industry. But
I think because like ideologically it
has been reduced so much to just a
woman's rights issue. It has been
reduced to you know it's my body my
choice. It's just a pill. It's just like
getting a tooth because it has become
you know such a um being diminished so
much. They don't have those mental
health safeguards in place. They don't
have those physical health safeguards in
place um or those legal safeguards to
protect women from going through this
experience. And it also says something,
I mean, horrifically antiatal about our
culture. The fact that this is deemed
acceptable is it's quite frankly
disgusting.
Yeah. An anti-mother, right?
Yeah. It's putting out the message that
that this is better than becoming a
mother. Um I think, you know, we really
lack a lot of support for moms and for
babies in those early stages. There's a
lot more that we can be doing um in our
society, in our community to um help
mothers, you know, be in community with
each other, um be meeting other moms, be
um you know, not stressed about having
to go back to work straight away, but
instead of be supported to take the time
off that they need. There's so much more
we can be doing to help and support
mothers and babies, but instead what we
often just offer is, you know, it's your
body your choice, so it's your problem,
your choice. Like, you want to have this
baby, you're on your own, or you just
take an abortion pill. We don't have
that support. That would be so much
better. And do you think this is a case
of just people trying to solve illegal
problems so they they make a law that's
probably not very smart or is there kind
of an extreme ideological bent to all of
I think there's an ideological bent. I
think it's clear that um and on the kind
of pro-abortion lobby side um there
can't be anything wrong with abortion
because then if one thing is wrong with
abortion then everything is wrong. It's
one of those black and white issues,
but it's very that's a very extreme
framing of it. Lo, surely because I
think and the polling to which you refer
probably shows all of this probably I
you tell me if I'm wrong, but I imagine
most people in this country support
abortion being available at some point.
Sure. Right. Is that fair?
Yeah. Sure.
And most people recognize that it is a
women's rights issue to some extent.
Because it affects women in a very
profound way. Right.
But on the other hand, the woman is not
the only person involved. And so what
you're trying to do is find some sort of
compromise. Yeah. Right. Which is where
I think most of the country is at. Is
that fair fair observation?
Right. But this is extreme.
This is really extreme. Yeah.
And so I'm just trying to understand, is
it because they were like, well, look,
actually I well, you know, even when I
think about it, do I want this woman
who's probably in a really terrible
state of mind, who's made a a a bad
decision, a terrible decision for her
that's going to affect her for the rest
of her life, do I want her to then also
go to prison for it?
When you frame it like that, I I don't
know. I what I'd rather is she if you're
going to have an abortion, you have
medical support. You have counseling
around that. You have all the the things
to to make sure that you you know
physically, medically, and other ways
you're supported. That's what I'd
prefer. So, do you think they just
hadn't considered this aspect of or or
is the Labor government really kind of
like, oh, let's just, you know, allow
women to kill babies?
Well, no. We agree more than you think
because I I also think this isn't the
average person's wish. I don't think the
average person was working on this, but
I think that there is um a proortion
lobby that that would take a more
extreme view.
And you think they've influenced this
Yeah, I think there there to me it seems
like a um a clear pathway to go from
pills by post to legalizing abortion um
for sorry decriminalizing abortion for
women at the end of pregnancy and then
decriminalizing it for doctors. There's
a clear kind of
we can't let women do this by
themselves. We've got to have medical
help there. You can see the kind of
slope. But this is crazy. This is insane
This isn't right. This is not
acceptable.
this is crazy. No, I know I keep
repeating myself. I literally have this
is completely unacceptable.
I know.
This is completely So, um do you do you
sense that there's a potential for any
kind of amendments to this going
forward? Is this being looked at or is
this now you know they've decided and
this is where we are? Well, I've been
encouraged um as you said at the start,
Constantine, a lot of people who have
never really engaged in this issue
suddenly have kind of formed an opinion
in the last few weeks and seen the
extremity of where we're at. And I'm now
speaking that and I include politicians
in that um from different parties. Um
and I think, you know, it's I don't
think the matter is settled. I think
it's going to be something that's
discussed in upcoming elections. I think
um parties will be thinking right now
how they want to respond to this in
their manifesto for example because
because it had I think they won the le
the political battle but I don't think
they won the PR battle. I don't think
they won the nation over to this idea
that it should be all the way up to
I tell you lo you know someone who
understands public communication a
little bit. If you get normal people to
recognize what's happened here and to
fully understand it whoever passed this
is going to have no support whatsoever.
This is not going to be popular with the
public when they get what's happened.
The the ordinary British person isn't on
going to be on board with this. They
just aren't.
It's already not popular. Again, you
know, polling shows only 1% of women
actually support abortion up to birth,
which is I mean, obvious when you think
about it, very few uh support abortion
up to birth. So, I think they did push
their luck on get going this far. 24
weeks is already extreme. 24 weeks is
already one of the most liberal in the
world. To go up to 40 was too far. And I
think this opens the conversation again
for where do we want to put this? Where
do we want to start protecting life?
But it's also recklessly irresponsible
because you're just going to dish out
these pills to women who are, let's say,
8 months pregnant. You don't know what
the psychological state of this woman
is. Maybe she can't consent. Maybe she's
so depressed, which happens to a lot of
women. Maybe she's in a position where
she simply can't consent for whatever
reason to be taking these pills. She
takes the pill.
I mean that that's a potential lawsuit
Yeah. Well, I mean, what about, you
know, this this is the case at the, you
know, even if they aren't at the end of
their pregnancy. If they're calling up
for pills at any stage, how do you know
that that's not an 18-year-old sitting
with her 45-year-old boyfriend across
the table who's also listening to the
and the abortion fighter says, "Is this
all because is this all your own idea?"
And she says, "Yes, yes."
Well, while he's going.
While he's going. Yes. Exactly. So there
when we brought in this um way to get an
abortion pill with such little
safeguarding with such little care or
prevention of you know abuses and it
used to be that if you would go in to
get your abortion pill you'd have a bit
of counseling and they'd be able to ask
you on your own is anyone influencing
you to do this. Can you lie there? Yes.
It's not fail safe. Absolutely not. But
at least it's a little bit more than you
know a quick phone call with someone
you've never met um just you know when
you're just trying to get a hold of
these pills. So when we reduced abortion
pills just to you know getting it's
almost like getting a paracetimal
through the post you know it's
look during co all kinds of crazy [&nbsp;__&nbsp;]
happened it was a lot of it was
completely unacceptable but you kind of
go it was co you know there's lots of
arguments about woman stuck with her
abusive boyfriend who you can kind of
like imagine co's over
and now we should be repealing the
things that were extremely
but instead politicians doubled down and
they made this permanent
doesn't make any sense sorry
do you This is a cost cutting exercise.
So like if you think about every time,
let's say a woman's 8 months pregnant,
she wants to she wants kill her baby.
Let's just be honest, that's what it is.
And they go to a doctor, it's actually
far cheaper for them not to have to go
to a GP. And a GP will talk to this
person and go, "Actually, this woman,
she can't go to a doctor if if the baby
is 8 months, right, at this point."
Yeah. So it would she wouldn't be able
to get a doctor after 24 weeks to unless
well there's some situations but they're
Okay. So but you just go nothing about
this makes sense. And look I know this
is going people are going to get upset
about this but I just imagine if you're
the father of that child.
And then you find out that your 8th
month old baby has effectively been
killed. I
I don't know what I would do.
that would feel well it's that's the
death of my child.
Yeah. Yeah. I think that's I think
abortion culture has really impacted
men and fatherhood as well which is
something that doesn't come up as often
and I understand why. I mean
I know I keep interrupting. What's
abortion culture?
The idea that it should be prominent and
normal like that Lily Allen laughing
about her having her five abortions is
just a regular occurrence. that it's
your body, your choice, and no one can
question it. The cultural presumption
that that abortion is okay and even
good. Um, kind of backfired on both men
and women because it used to be that,
and this is obviously, you know, an
ideal scenario, and it didn't always
work out like this, but it used to be
that if you got a girl pregnant, you
would probably marry her, you would take
responsibility, you become parents,
mother, and father.
With the advent of my body, my choice,
it really became your body, your choice,
your issue, your public, you're on your
own. If if you want to keep this baby,
it's on you.
And so that allowed the disintegration
of that fatherhood responsibility, which
it allows men to abandon their
responsibility is what you're really
It allows men to abandon and it also now
kind of enforces that abandonment
because men have no say
whether their child is aborted. And I
you know Senseto man and I can
understand you know people feel like
it's a woman's body. I understand that
they're they carry the hardship of the
pregnancy but in disintegrating this
idea that it was meant to be together.
It was meant to be a joint
responsibility. It's actually atomized
and isolated both parts which makes it
much harder on both.
And I I just feel that this is a part of
the conversation that's not being talked
about because particularly for men, if 8
months old and the baby is killed,
and then there's what are you left with?
You you there's no recourse to any type
justice or or anything. You're just left
with the knowledge that your baby has
been killed. And what do you do? You
just get up and go to work the next day
and carry on as if nothing has happened.
That's a profound grief that's going to
be impacted upon you.
Yeah. Uhhuh. And there's a kind of
psychological dissonance as well. I know
at least in Scotland, maybe in England
as well, you can now get a kind of death
certificate if you have a miscarriage um
in your pregnancy even before 24 weeks.
And to acknowledge the pain,
to acknowledge the pain at some point,
to acknowledge the loss of that life, to
acknowledge that there was a child that
was there and now there isn't. Um so you
know you can have this our society our
government grants this recognition to
some children but others because of a
decision that was made they're just a
clump of cells. Our human dignity or
human worth can't just depend on whether
we are wanted. It's got to depend on
something more than that.
You know it's interesting. I've never
thought about this but you kind of when
you mentioned men taking respons I never
thought about this way but people might
not know this about me. So I was born
when my mom was 18. She just turned 18 4
days before and my dad was 20. They met
at university probably had a one night
stand or whatever. Uh and
you know they they've had some they
could have had a different option in my
but my dad did take responsibility.
My parents' marriage you know not
necessarily the best one but nonetheless
uh four children.
Yeah. all all in the in the you know
happy and unhappy in their own different
ways but like
like I might not have been here.
Yeah. The world doesn't get constant
Yeah. A lot of people would be happy. So
you've all missed out. No, but like I I
I I think that's a very profound point
actually. And I've always felt, it's not
that I I was ever likely to be in that
position, but I'd always nonetheless
felt that if I was in a position where a
child was coming into the world because
of me,
ultimately was my responsibility.
Um I think it's a very unhealthy society
that doesn't teach men that. It doesn't
expect that of them, but also does not
create the conditions for that to be
also then be reciprocated with, as you
say, them having some input into that
decision being made as well. Yeah. Now I
would hope nonetheless and maybe you can
tell us Lo that in most situations
nonetheless it is the two potential
parents who are having that discussion
is that
it depends. I mean there's there's no
way to measure there's no way to gather
data on that kind of thing. Um so you
know whether it's together or a lot of
girls will I mean because it's so
diminished um and demeaned a lot of
girls will just do it by themselves or
the encouragement of friends. I've got a
good friend who had an abortion at 19
effectively because her friends told her
to um and told her it would be no big
deal and that was you know one of the
most profound regrets of her life. Um,
and so yeah, and when you were talking
Constantine, I was thinking as well that
this is kind of baked into society from
a young age because instead of having
that expectation of fatherhood and
responsibility at schools now, we have a
lot of sex ad. We don't have any family
ad. We don't have we have we get told
consistently how to avoid pregnancy, but
nothing about
Well, it's cuz then you're moralizing.
You're telling people that the stable
family with the mom and the dad is is
like, you know, you're excluding people
and all this other stuff.
which of course, yes, I'm somewhat
sensitive to making sure everyone's
included, but also there is a typical
way of doing this thing that works.
And that also ought to be communicated
somehow, it seems to me.
And I was very fortunate, I guess, cuz I
was brought up in a c a in a culture,
but also in a family where these things
were kind of, you know, made manifest to
me. Yeah,
but I can totally see how absent that in
a society where technologically
everything is now so easy and oh just oh
you know you order a deliveroo and an
abortion pill in the same transaction.
it's not good.
it's not good, Louis.
It's not It's not
It's not good at all.
Yeah. And I I think you're right in
terms of the you know, we're scared to
to speak about a mom and a dad being
best for a child. Um, but again, it's
kind of prioritizing adult wants and
desires and needs above what's good and
healthy and right and statistically
approve. You know, like having a a
father in the picture in the home is um
going to prevent that child by many
hundreds of percentage points um from
committing crime, from failing out at
school. It's going to have a much better
chance of going into um university, um
having stable appointment, good health,
you know, like the statistics are just
so clear and obvious. the data is there
about good fathers and good mothers and
I appreciate that there'll be situations
of course that um a woman will have no
choice but to go alone and we should
give her all the support that she needs
and there'll be situations where dads
are cut out of the picture without their
and that's really tough as well but I
think we should um at least talk about
how we can promote and help families to
have that ideal scenario and to support
their child in the best way.
Yeah. And by the way, just to sorry,
Francis, just on on I want I know people
who are same-sex couples who are
bringing up children brilliantly. And so
this is why it's difficult because I
certainly don't want to say, you know,
these types of couples can't raise a
child properly. That and that is what a
lot of people hear. But at the same
time, there's got to be room to say that
the typical way of this, the way that
this is done is like a mom and a dad.
And that's something that we might want
to tell children at some point. We might
also tell them that you know in some
occasions some people are different they
might do this but broadly speaking we
should also be communicating that
seems to me like the right balance I
don't what the problem with this
inclusion agenda is that it's become
exclusion if it was about inclusion
which is like look this this is kind of
how we normally do it but this thing
also happens and we are
aware of that and accepting of that and
tolerant of that
that's fine by me at least
but we've gone too far now it seems to
me to the point where we're just
excluding the norm and celebrating only
the the the non-typical way of being.
Yeah. I mean Katie Fast is one of the
best writers out there on this. She was
raised by two lesbian moms and um
I didn't know that about Katie
and she um now does a lot of work
challenging um the or she she takes a
child first approach which I think is
really helpful. And so um is it um is it
you know are there intrinsic desires in
adults to have children and is that a
lovely thing? Yes, absolutely. And I
don't want to diminish that at all. But
um is it right to deprive a child with a
father or deprived child or a mother?
That's really hard on the child. And we
can't be blind to um what that does for
a newborn baby to be taken away from a
mother for example in a surrogate
situation and be deprived of that mother
to fulfill the well-meaning desires of
another couple. I think that's something
that we have to challenge a little bit
our own unbiases on. But you're right
also that if you look at a children's
library these days, you'd think that
that was the average situation and the
children with mom and dad are not normal
and um yeah, I think there just has to
be a lot more of an open conversation on
this and people are very scared and um
it's difficult. You don't want to offend
people, but we have to talk about the
Oh, look, this is a very uncomfortable
conversation to be having. We're talking
about the sex ed thing. What what we
don't teach women is about their
fertility.
Yep. and how fertility decreases over
age until there comes a point when it
becomes very unlikely then impossible.
And with some women, you know, the older
they get, fertility sometimes falls off
a cliff. It's just an unfortunate truth.
And sometimes a woman has an abortion
early on. That may be one of the few
chances she actually has of having a
child. And it would be I'm sure there
are women out there who had an abortion
and then subsequently tried to have kids
couldn't have it later on in life. I
mean, not only the regret that they must
feel, it must be awful.
Awful. Yeah, you're right. We came
across, you know, a story in in a
Facebook forum or something like that
where it was a 34 year old woman who was
posting about, should I get an abortion?
I just feel like I'm so young to have a
Um, and my partner and I, we've only
been together seven years.
And it's I mean I think we have an
infantilization of kind of 20s and 30s,
don't we? If you get to 34 and you think
you're still too young to have a child,
too young. Gosh. Um
you're one year away from having a
geriatric pregnancy. As unpleasant as
that term might be for people,
it's true. It's true. And a lot of
people don't realize that. And I think,
you know, we're plugged um even on the
sub on the um tube right now in London,
there's adverts for IVF and the Scottish
government are actually promoting
programs trying to get girls at
universities to donate eggs um for money
so that older people can have children.
And we're kind of locked into this weird
kind of technological dystopian like,
oh, leave it too late because you want
to do other things first and don't
worry, we'll fix it with technology when
you're ready in your 40s. Very few
people are told that IVF most times
doesn't work. um it's very expensive and
very hard to go through. Um especially
on a woman's body, it's, you know, it's
it's extremely challenging. We're not
told any of this reality. We're just
promoted it as don't worry, that's the
solution once you've kind of done your
career thing and you're ready to settle
down. But the structures of society kind
of pushes in that way, don't they?
you're kind of by the time you're
hitting your 30s, you spent most of your
20s in education and then, you know,
going through the grad programs and the
internships and the early career, there
isn't really um in the structures of
society right now, we're not encouraged
to settle down earlier and to think
about can we push some of that stuff
later because we can do it later and we
can have it's more easier to have kids
earlier. I think yeah that's another
thing we have to be talking about and
being more honest about and the
statistics because even after 30 it
starts to fall and then 35 and then 40
and trails off. And on that note, uh
before we head to Substack where our
audience get to ask you their questions,
what is the one thing we're not talking
about that we should be?
Prepared for this for five years.
That is a joke. It's not a joke.
Um I think um I hear a lot right now in
the rights about the need for restoring
a Christian West, for restoring
Christian society, especially in the
context of immigration is often kind of
now used as a word buzzword of um we
want to have a Christian nation. What I
think we're not talking about within
that is that a Christian nation is a
nation of Christian people. And a lot of
us um I don't know if there's a
reckoning yet of what that means
personally in our personal lives.
I think for example the Tory party we
saw it kind of fall apart from being a
party that valued conservatism. But then
when it left that muring of why of that
kind of basis of faith and Christianity
um it started promoting all sorts of
kind of liberal ideals and then
eventually just disintegrated into
something that doesn't promote
conservatism at all over the last 14
years. They were the ones that brought
in the prayer bans and pills by
postabortion and and various other
measures that are very anti-Christian.
Um and so I think we have to recognize
that um on the right in the UK if we are
trying to put in conservatism without
Christ that is also just going to be
baseless and moreless and drift at some
point. I think we have to get back to
those Christian ideals and apply them in
our personal lives first. We can't be
you know out there promoting marriage
and family and babies and then have our
right-wing politicians really they're
you know sleeping around being
unfaithful to their partner and not
promoting this in their personal lives.
So I think we have a lot of work to do.
Right. But I think that's why we're
Good luck. We know some of these people.
Good luck with that.
But I think that's why we're failing.
I think unless we adopt this properly,
wholesale,
this is a a thing not to get it not too
far into it, but there are a lot of uh
there are a lot of supposedly Christian
or moral people who are not very
Christian or moral and a lot of
non-Christian people who actually do
stick with those values. The values are
important. That's what really matters.
But I I then we get into a whole
argument about where do you get them
blah blah blah. Let's save that for
another time. Head it over to Substack
where we continue the conversation.
What is your opinion on how society
should deal with cancel culture as a
consequence of distasteful but free
speech? How can we support families
better so an unexpected pregnancy is not
seen as the end of the world?
Heat. Heat.
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