Great Pods
The Art of Not Giving a F with Taraji P. Henson

Key Points

Taraji P. Henson has played iconic roles from Evette in Baby Boy to Katherine Johnson in Hidden Figures and Cookie Lyon in Empire
She moved to LA with just $700 and her son Marcel, choosing fate over fear to pursue her acting dreams
Her father was a Vietnam veteran who encouraged her big personality and channeled her through the arts from a young age
She discovered her power to affect audiences in kindergarten when performing "Tomorrow" and getting laughs from the crowd
The Boris Lawrence Henson Foundation focuses on mental health advocacy, inspired by her father's struggles and her son's challenges
She emphasizes that mental health struggles are normal and it's about navigating through difficult emotions, not avoiding them
Having her son Marcel gave her "laser sharp focus" and made her more business-oriented rather than networking in clubs
She can completely separate her characters from her real self - when they yell "cut," the character stays on set
Empire changed television and her career, but she had to fight against being typecast in similar roles
She initially hesitated about playing Cookie Lyon, worried the character could come off as a stereotype, but found the character's "why"
She insisted Terrence Howard play Lucious Lyon or she wouldn't do Empire, showing her collaborative instincts
Her collaboration with Tyler Perry in films like "A Fall from Grace" stems from understanding authentic storytelling for underserved audiences
At 50, she truly doesn't care what people think anymore - "No" is her favorite word and she protects her peace fiercely
She's learned that successful relationships require someone who champions your success rather than competing with it
She diversified her career with TPH hair care products, recognizing the importance of multiple income streams beyond acting
Her advice to working mothers is that pursuing your dreams teaches your children what's possible
She believes in showing assets but leaving something to the imagination when it comes to social media presence
Her friendship philosophy has evolved to cut out trauma-bonding relationships and echo chambers that don't truly fulfill her
Full Transcript

Language: en
She's played everyone from Evette and
Baby Boy to Katherine Johnson and Hidden
Figures and of course the one and only
Cookie Lion. But Taraji P. Henson isn't
just a powerhouse on screen. She's also
been a bold voice for mental health,
self-worth, and protecting your peace.
Today, she's bringing that voice to our
conversation, talking love and
relationships. Her advice for me as a
working mom, early side hustles, and
what it means when a story led by a
black woman takes over the world. Let's
get into it cuz baby this is Geeky
This episode is presented in partnership
with Airbnb where summer adventures feel
like a home away from home. Speaking of
unforgettable moments, well, you'll see.
Let's start the show.
The Taraji P. Henson in the house on
Baby This is Kiki Palmer. I am so happy
to have one of my favorite virals of all
time in the building.
Yay. Thanks for having Oh my gosh. I We
always are seeing each other out and
about. I don't know what we were
somebody's concert. I mean, I just feel
like we always seeing each other out.
I've been seeing running into you since
you were like 16.
The first time was at the Mike Eps uh
comedy show.
It was Mike Apps cuz I couldn't remember
if it was Mike or Kevin.
Yes. And I was like, "This baby knows
comedy. Look at her checking out the
comedy shows." You were 16, weren't you?
I kept my eyes on you ever since. I was
literally like I'm sitting next to
Daraji. I was living my best life and I
feel the same way right now. Thank you
for coming. Now, I'm excited to get into
these pre-show pull-up questionnaire to
see what type of energy we're giving.
And I'm already loving the first thing
today. I'm giving Scaparelli because
yes, fabulous with the side of Zara. We
love Zara.
I do highs and lows. That's how you keep
from going broke. Man, we was just
talking about how the shopping will
literally have you in a choco, but I
feel like we should be able to write
that off. It's a part of our career.
Yeah, they changed it a couple of years
back. They change it has to be like
costumey. Isn't that crazy?
Like you can't be able to wear it on the
street, but it's like I am a I need a
costume to be Kiki Palmer.
Kiki, I'm with you, babe. You know, I'm
with you.
Today's mood in one word, grateful.
Always gratitude. It makes everything
better. Especially when things are hard.
For sure. At any time, any day I wake up
on this side of the soil, I'm grateful.
Amen. What did you listen to on the ride
here? Ratchy hip hop. I love that it's
just the genre in itself. We didn't say
any particular song. It's just ratchet
hip hop. Put the playlist on.
Just play it so I can stay up.
Are you a night owl or are you a morning
It depends on what time I went to bed.
Yeah, I as I've gotten older, I'm trying
to be in the bed at the latest 1000 p.m.
And I know that's crazy cuz how you
getting there? You know what I mean?
When you have to work and everything,
but I want to sleep so I can get up
That's cute. You know what's good? a
good night for me in bed by 700 p.m.
And that's even better.
That's e that's like oh my gosh, my life
is made.
I because guess what? I stop answering
the calls. I stop it with the emails. As
soon as my housekeeper leave, I'll be
closing the blinds.
I mean, because you're going to get
maximum rest and you have time to pour
into you. You can run that bath. You can
watch a little something. You know what
I mean? You don't have to go straight to
sleep. You know what I'm saying? Like I
really appreciate that. Okay, one thing
that instantly makes you laugh. My fat
Frenchies. How many do you have?
Oh my gosh. How old are they?
Um Buddha is two. Zen. Zen will be one
in December.
First of all, I love that they're all
about peace. We got Buddha and we got
They have to grow into their names.
Especially Zen. Have you always been a
dog person?
Um, yeah. I I was when I was a kid and
then I think I became a a real dog mom
when I became a mom cuz I had I got my
first dog when I that I owned not my
Um when I when Marcel was like five.
Shout out to Marcel. How old is Marcel?
Older than you?
No. Really?
Maybe 31.
31. We're the same age.
The same age.
Wow. Shout out to Marcel. You know, I'm
a boy mom now.
I know.
It's the best in the back.
We just went to lunch yesterday. Me and
my handsome man.
How crazy is that now that you I mean
the conversations that you guys probably
have are so maybe similar but different
because he's an adult.
He teaches me a lot. Like the shoe is on
the other foot now.
Oh my god.
Yeah. He teaches me a lot.
Do you see yourself reflected a lot in
him or like your parents? Like who does
he most remind you of
physically? His face is is is cut and
paste of his dad. Wow. Like it's crazy
because you know his dad passed when he
was 34.
Oh my gosh.
So Marcel's 31. He's really like when I
look at him it's just like I got to
pinch myself sometimes.
Oh my gosh. Were you and his dad
together when he passed? No, I we had
already broken up and I was living here
in LA and um I it because it was like I
remember reading Baby Boy
and I said to John Singleton, I said,
"You've been following me like this is
my life. This is literally my life. The
car, him baring the car, all of that. We
were young and dumb and you know how it
is." I mean in that movie like we we
that movie is such a cultural classic
but when you really get down it also
talks about the systems of opp you know
it's about the systems of oppression and
how young men black men specifically
become infantilized because of the
system and then the and the moms and the
thing you know so it as I've gotten
that that's why it won't go away
and it's like baby boy like these are
the baby boys of the community how do we
help them evolve through
that you know these crutches um so That
movie is like I mean obviously it's one
of your most iconic roles. One of my
favorite roles that you've done. Um but
the last question before we get into to
everything I want to talk with you about
is your last screenshot on your phone.
Oh I I I love recipes.
Me too. So that's my algorithm. So it
was probably a recipe cuz I have this
new app called I shouldn't be giving
these people it's free but it's called
recipe me. Rey me. like R E S Y R E R R
E C I M E something like that. I'll show
you when I leave. And so what happens is
if you're on Instagram or if you look up
a um recipe, it will you can save it to
this app and it'll put it all in the
dimensions and the measurements and all
the directions and instructions all in
one app.
So you like to cook?
I love to cook, girl. I love to cook and
I want to be able to cook more. You know
what I mean? cuz it takes time to sit
there and do and get, but it's one of my
favorite things to do. I love looking up
videos online.
I want to take a culinary class.
Me, too.
I saw Tiana the other day. I'm so
inspired by her because I really want to
take one. I I watched her and Karuchi
took one, too.
And I'm so inspired.
I mean, I just love the I've always It's
very meditative. It is. And it's also
feels good when you know you can feed
your loved ones.
Yes. Someone asked me a while ago, how
do you show love? I say I cook because
everything from having to go to the
store, figure out the whole rest, you
know, the the meal for the night. Do you
like love?
Do I have a go-to
like for um for like where you say like
boom, I'm cooking this one for the first
time with these people? Like this is
this is the Taji P. Henson meal.
Uh for me it's about a feeling. I love
to make I just learned for real.
Well, I mean I do pretty.
I'll be going in there with a hole.
Okay. So then this measuring. No, I do
measure and then I have I have dishes
that I can make off the top where I've
been making for years like a lasagna. I
make lasagna like a old Italian
grandmother.
Girl, I'm coming to the house. I'm
coming to the house.
Please do.
Now, I mean, you also travel because I
just seen this St. Lucia trip, girl, and
I'm trying to figure out how to get an
invite cuz you were living large. I just
like to do that um that girlfriend's
Now, which one are you? Are you the one
planning everything? Are you the one
late to the van? Like
I'm I'm the planner.
Come on, Virgo.
Oh, you know how we do.
Yes, we need it to be right.
It has to be right.
So, how was the trip? I mean,
it was amazing. I was only there for 4
days. Um trying to find time to stay
away is the issue, but 4 days I I was I
was grateful. The Wind Jammer had us
there. It was amazing. We went to this
small town called Sanfria.
Um and it's in a volcano. Have you ever
been to a volcano before?
No. And I've never been to St. Lucia.
You have to go. It is so beautiful. It's
this cute. The Sria is this beautiful
town right on the edge of the in between
these two peaks, these mountains. It
looks fake.
And to see it's all black people cuz you
usually you go see you'll see a town
like that in Scotland or on Al Maui
coast or in Italy or somewhere like
But this is black people. Like it was
like it was like u magical.
Oh my gosh. But you also visited a place
that I felt is very magical. You did a
solo trip in Bali. I've always wanted to
do solo trips and I've always wanted to
go to Bali. And you, you know, tell me
about your experience cuz you said it
was very peaceful. You came back with a
different vibe. How long were you there
on that trip?
When I went the first time I was there,
for a month.
Oh my.
Yeah. You need that because it's so far.
It's so far. It's like depending on the
route you take, it's like 24 hours of
traveling. So you really need more than
two weeks to really get get your
bearings, you know, get that time clock
right and so you can enjoy it.
So did you have any like of the because
I know there's obviously a big culture
of wellness there. Did you do anything
Oh, I did a lot of hot yoga. Um I did uh
a healing where a priestess prayed over
me. Um moved a lot of negative energy
out of my body. sound bowls. I did the
um sound healing. I mean, that's
literally where you go to eat, pray,
When I tell you I love all that stuff. I
did my first kind of thing like that in
Sedona when I was like 18. And this lady
was beating on my damn chest so hard. I
didn't know if I was crying cuz I was
releasing or if I was in pain, but I was
like, "Keep beating, mama."
She was moving something out was going
to drown me. She kept throwing water in
my face and I was like,
but uh it worked. I felt lighter.
You know what I mean, right? I don't
know if it was cuz I was fighting for my
life here or fighting for my life here.
Either way, we going to figure it out.
now, you're already uh Tony nominated
for Jaja's African Hair Braiding on
Broadway. Congratulations on that. But
you're getting ready to actually do your
Broadway debut with Debbie Allen. That's
exciting. How you feeling about that?
I'm excited. You know, I went to Howard
University, the Mecca. hate you, you
know. Um, and I studied theater and
actually August Wilson came to um to
speak to us in my when I was in my first
acting class. We got a lot of Aussie
Davis, Ruby D, you know, um, Felicia
Rashad came back and, you know, she and
Debbie Allen are alumni. So, for me it's
360 cuz you know,
it's crazy.
It's crazy. I won the Debbie Allen and
Felicia Rashad when I was 6 months
pregnant. I needed to finish school. I
had no money and I auditioned for the
triple threat award in honor of their
father Andrew Allen and I won it. So I
was able to finish school. So to you
know I've worked with her on with Debbie
Allen in the beginnings of my career
when I was on um this Lifetime
television show called the the division.
She played my mom her and Sally Struts.
They were a lesbian couple who raised
And Debbie Allen was my my birth mom.
And so then and then she came and
directed some episodes of Empire and
then now she's going to and and I
directed on a sitcom like uh I forget
half a half years ago. So she's been
like Yeah.
Girl, you did sister too. I mean I've
love I love when I'm watching like a
sitcom and like I'm like right.
I was busy back then.
Okay. Um, but what's so interesting to
me was that this was your first Broadway
debut? I know that. I mean, you like you
said, you did theater. Did Broadway did
film just come at you so fast film and
TV that you didn't get a chance to
really invest in the theater scene as
much in that way?
No, no, no. Theater uh, well, I when I
became a mom in college, I just knew
that I didn't want to struggle in New
York with a kid. I felt like the the
cost of living would have been a little
tough for me
being a single mother. So, I think
moving to LA was the right choice. But,
you know, theater is always around.
Like, I've always gotten offers. The
timing, the timing just was never right
for me.
Um, and so this time
is perfect, you know?
What do you think that um this character
offers you that other characters have
and I mean, you've played the gamut,
comedy, drama. I mean, there's so many
different nuances you can tap into.
Which one is this character you think
going to be feeding? Um, well, my love
for August Wilson and what he did, you
know, because I studied that so many of
his plays in college and I did so many
of the monologues for classes and things
like that. So, to actually do it in a
real way, a major way on Broadway, it's
just again, it's 360 for me. It's just
when does it start? Because I can't wait
to come see it. I I love the theater.
Yeah, me too. It's We start rehearsals
the end of February
2026. I'm coming to see you. Joe
Turner's coming. It's going to be
amazing. Looking forward to seeing that.
Now, you've described yourself as the
quirky girl in the hood. So, I need to
go back to what little Taraji was like.
I mean, where did what area did you grow
up? Grow up. I know you're from
Washington DC.
DC. That's what I thought. Okay. So,
what was it like for you as a kid
growing up in DC?
I was very rambunctious. Um, I had a
very big personality that was nurtured
specifically by my dad because he was
very big personality. I was just given
the I was free to just be me. My family
would sit and I would entertain them. I
mean, they I was always like baby magic.
Like that's the best way to put it. Um,
just probably undiagnosed ADHD,
Seriously, I relate. But but my dad
noticed that in me at a very young age
and started like you know funneling me
through the arts and literally that's
why I didn't I never became a statistic
you know I wasn't supposed to make it
out the hood. That was going to be my
next question is when did the arts find
you? You know and what was your first
realization that you like was it
singing? Was it your humor? When did you
realize that oh I have a talent? I think
honestly I'm 50 I'll be 55 911 and I
still remember kindergarten. I was very
rambunctious child and it was specific
teachers in my life. My kindergarten
teacher I can't remember her name but
she put me on stage for the first time
because I just would not be still. I
wouldn't keep my mouth shut and she
needed that big mouth for the graduation
and I sang um the sun will come out
tomorrow. And I remember I did something
at the mic, something funny or something
and the audience laughed and I was like,
I felt that power, you know? I remember
that feeling in kindergarten. Then
again, in the fifth grade, this was back
when teachers could spank the kids,
which is crazy. My daddy told me about
that. I
Oh, yeah. My mother gave them all the
permission. Whoop her ass.
And so in the fifth grade, I was I I
wasn't a bad kid. I just had all of this
energy and it just needed to be
channeled. And so my fifth grade
teacher, Mrs. Lane, I'll never forget
her, put me on the stage for the first
time. And I had to play the Queen of
Hearts in some play. And I again that
feeling that I had in kindergarten, came
rushing back. And then again in the
seventh grade, I was in this horrible
ghetto ass school called Friendship. It
was a school without walls.
The school was called Friendship.
Friendship.
That name is even.
But it it was a school without walls or
So what y'all was doing? Y'all was at
the Grove
basically.
That was crazy.
It was like the windows were like 4x4s,
really thick. You couldn't see out of
them. It literally was the pipeline to
Oh my gosh. And they
It was getting us prepared.
Right. Especially cuz it was in the
hood. Oh, absolutely. So, we had the
grade school young kids were like down
in the basement. It was the weirdest
setup ever.
No windows. So if the class clown across
the hall acts up, the whole floor is
disrupted. It was a mess. But I got out.
I made it.
No windows.
Yeah. She introduced me to Shakespeare,
Miss Hawkins in the seventh grade.
Shakespeare.
Shakespeare in the hood. Y'all hear me?
Oh my gosh.
I mean, what do you think about those
early days that shaped you? There's a
cool quote that in Glamour magazine
where you spoke about your father. He
said, "Fear and fate can't coexist."
No. You got to pick a side.
I mean, what's an example whether early
or even into, you know, now where you
feel like fate showed up for you or that
you chose fate over fear?
I say the biggest moment was me deciding
to move out to LA with just $700 in my
pocket and my kid.
I mean, me when I was just like thinking
about that again, it's different when
you hear stuff like that and you're not
a mom.
You know what I'm saying? It's just like
those mothers can do anything, you know?
But when you become a mom, you realize
that's crazy, girl.
No, people thought I was crazy. But I
just know me and I know that I'm going
to make a way. I just that's what I do,
you know? I watch my father make a way.
I watch my mother make a way. Like it's
all was all around me. I had incredible
examples right in my life. Like I didn't
have to look to the stars. It was right
around me. My mother left the South at
18 and literally worked her way up from
the basement to corporate America. So,
you know, I I was watching this. So, all
I did was just
do what was shown to me. You know, my
mom never gave up. Um, she worked hard,
my dad worked hard. I was like, "Oh, I
just got to work hard and apply myself."
Like, literally, that was it. Wow. So, I
mean, what were those early days like
coming into like did how soon did you
find your community? Like did the act
young actors and actresses hang out?
Like did y'all have a a way that y'all
got together
in LA?
In LA. Yeah.
Oh yeah. Cuz we were here like so and so
moved to LA. So you know Howard is a big
community.
Yeah. So that's all it was.
School connections too.
And I know did you date Hill Harbor?
Who said that?
What was that? Some tea that I sipped
during my research
a long time ago. child.
Were you even born?
Now, why she had to get me together like
that? She didn't have to do that. I was
right there with my dad.
You were You were You were little. He
doesn't remember.
I mean, what was it like dating
entertainers? Like, I mean, cuz that's
something I've never I guess I've dated
an entertainer before, but it's
different, you know?
How do I say this?
Baby, this is
Baby, I had a vision so clear it hit me
like a pool noodle to the face. My
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last summer I booked one of those
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Grab your popcorn and sip a little
something because I'm going to need my
girls every Wednesday to watch Tyler
Perry's sisters at 98 central on BET.
Listen to this. With the stress of jobs,
relationships, and jealousy, everyone is
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It has its challenges.
Yeah. Yeah. Um,
it does.
Yeah. Been there, did it, done it. Not
sure if I would go back.
Girl, isn't it so crazy? You know what I
Yeah, I do.
It's just I I think for me, and you
never know how love is going to come, so
I'm not telling you anything. Just do
what you doing, but you know.
Yeah, for sure. But it's just like I I'd
rather have a a different conversation
at home.
You know what I mean?
But then we run into this thing where
it's this double standard. At least I
feel you know when as a successful woman
that ends up being a thorn in the side
in your dating life for some reason.
But it's some it has to be someone who
can who understands what you do
and and champions it like it's not in
competition. Yes. wants to see you
thrive, don't want to get in your lane,
you know. Um it's and they exist, you
know. It's just where are they?
No, seriously, it is true. It's a
conversation I think about often. I
always talk about it with the successful
women and women in our industry because
it's different for the guys. I mean, no
one cares if they found somebody, you
know, crazy girls. It doesn't matter.
It's not looked at any way. You know
what I mean? But for for us, it's it's a
total different thing because we have to
deal with the gender biases and like you
said, the competition, which
you know, it shouldn't be there, but
it's a thing.
Um, I do want to talk about
you honoring your father's legacy with
the Boris Lawrence Foundation.
Um, and it's centered around mental
health. Let's I want to just talk a
little bit about what made you start
that. Um, and how it's been going.
Well, my dad had his challenges. He's a
Vietnam vet
and he was very hard on the sleeve. He,
you know, talked, shared everything. He
didn't hide anything from me. And just
watching him struggle and knowing that
the resources just weren't resourcing.
Then I become a mom to a young black boy
and he's getting older and the
rosecolored glasses come off and he
realizes I'm a black man in America and
I don't know what to do with that. I'm
not a black man. And we started having
our struggles and
it was time to go for help. look for
help cuz I can afford it, you know,
thank God.
Um, but then I thought about a community
of people who can't
not only not can't afford it, but won't
even talk about it.
So, I just felt like and then the more
research I did and finding out the
statistics and the numbers of the ages
of children who contemplate suicide or
die by suicide. And the number is
getting the age is getting younger and
younger and younger. We're talking like
five year olds contemplating life and
It's so insane to me when I see that and
I don't know the reason why
I couldn't sit idle. I couldn't I had to
do something. And so that's how the
Boris Lawren Henson Foundation was born.
I think it's so good that we talk about
you know thank you for doing that work
because I think it's so important that
we talk about that and we continue to
normalize it because I do think we we
live in a society in general like I'm
not even going to put social media and
all that stuff into it just yet. We live
in a society in life as human beings
where we think we're supposed to be
happy all the time. Yeah, you know that
happiness is a baseline and it's just
not. Some people just can be born with a
melancholic orientation where it's just
you're just more so melancholic. You
know, there's nothing wrong with that
and that's okay. But it's when we are
told that we should be a certain way or
we should be like this that becomes the
problem. And then we add in social media
and you as a young person comparing my
life and should I be doing this or
should I be doing that and it's like
guys sometimes you're going to get
depressed.
It's not stopping the depression. It's
navigating your way through it.
And you know, leaning in and learning
and teaching yourself how to deal with
those waves because I think the more
that we talk about it, the the
normalizing it begins and people don't
have to fight those negative emotions as
much because it's just life.
It is what it is.
It is.
Life is going to life. You're going to
have ups and downs. Some days are going
to be better than others. That's just
It really is. It really is.
Now, you've worn a lot of different
hats. It was cool getting into this.
It's like you worked at the Pentagon
before you started really full-time
acting. You were substitute teaching.
You even did singing and dinner theater.
That one sound very fun. I feel like you
was eating it up.
Now, what do you think your experience
was like with all those jobs? How they
kind of helped you in your career now?
Well, I just think for me it's always
about people watching. all the different
people that I interacted with and lots
of characters, you know, especially
especially when you're a waitress cuz
everybody gets full. They're drinking
and they get loose. So, a lot of
characters. I I've I've done a lot of
interesting um character study. Wow.
In all these different jobs because I
always saw myself as an actress and it
was just I'm doing this in the interim.
So, I was always collecting, you know,
work, collecting a bag of characters to
use any time because I knew I would have
What did you feel your breakout role
was? Cuz obviously you I mean, for many
of us, we're like, "Oh, baby boy." But
what do you think that was the one for
you where you feel like people really
got to see?
No, it wasn't Baby Boy. Because Baby
Boy, they thought that John Singleton
found me somewhere off the street.
I mean, the character was so real. All
your characters are.
Thank you. I don't know. I think I'm
still having breakthrough moments. I
don't know because
you know, like, yes, I've done theater,
but you know, the the my core audience
really, they haven't seen me on the
stage. So, that's another breakout
moment. You know what I mean?
Yes. Yes. I mean, but also, we got to
talk about the breakout moment of not
just you, Taraji, but TV in general when
y'all did Empire. Oh, that was
when you played Cookie because I mean it
it changed TV. It changed the
conversation. People weren't even watch
I mean even Lee Daniels just doing TV.
So I have to talk to you about that time
and did you initially like the character
Cookie? Did you see that? Yeah. Like
let's talk about that beginning and what
made you say yes because thank goodness
you did.
Thank you. I was actually doing a play
in Pasadena because I grew up there.
Yeah. So, I had um Pasadena Playhouse
actually and so I had just left Person
of Interest and I decided I didn't
really like TV. It felt a bit too
and I didn't like it and so I was turned
off and my manager at the time kept
telling me about this script Empire. You
need to read the script. And I was like,
I'm doing theater to see if I even still
love what I do. Leave me alone. I don't
I'm not reading this script. It's
stupid. Mhm. No, I mean that's how it
can feel after you've been doing it long
you know, and so I literally didn't I
would not read the script and he kept
calling me saying Fox is there. Fox I'm
like Fox who?
He's like Fox execs they're there to see
the play.
Every night somebody from Fox would come
and I would have to go out to them. And
finally, right? So I made them come to
me. So finally I got I got home and I I
don't know if you've ever done theater
before, but it takes up all of your
time. You literally have no time.
And so one day I I went home and I
started reading the script and I was
like, "This is dumb hip hop. This is
stupid." And then Cookie gets out of
jail and I was like, "Wait a minute."
I was like, "Okay, I I I can dig it. I I
like it." But I was scared of her
because, you know, played wrong, she
could just come off as a stereotypical
black, sassy, loudmouth black woman. And
that's never my intention. It's always
to make real people breathe life into
these characters so someone out in the
world can see themselves reflected in
these characters I portray.
So, I read it and once I started doing
my research and I started getting to the
why, it's always a why a person is the
way they are. And if you play that,
that's the truth. then the then the
audience will then feel empathy or care
about the character, you know, because
there's always a why. So once I got to
her why, I was like, "Oh, I can see
myself doing this." But then I was like,
"Terence Howard has to be Lucius or I
can't do this."
And you knew from like like was that you
coming in and saying it or did
I said it to Lee Daniels on a Zoom.
That's right.
And I said, "I will do this, but it has
to be with Terrence. If you can't get
Terrence, I'm cool." And I closed the
computer and next thing next thing I
know they're calling me and Terrence in
for a chemistry read. I was like I don't
have to do a chemistry read this dude. I
told you to hire him. But anyway, oh my
gosh. I mean,
how did that impact your career? I mean,
like I know we've seen it and we we were
there, but like what kind of roles were
you being offered after you seen after
people saw you do cookie? Like how did
it impact what people saw that you could
do? It's interesting because when you're
first getting started, when you do
something really well, then they kind of
just send you a lot of scripts like
that. Yeah. So, it happened when I did
Baby Boy. They sent me Every Ghetto Baby
Mama and I was like, I'm really
classically trained, guys.
Shakespeare,
you know. Then, um, again, it happened.
I did, they just couldn't figure me out,
I guess. And I think they still trying
to. But
um I did hit um not Hidden Figures. I
did um Benjamin Button and then like I
got two other scripts where I played an
aged mother and I'm like guys I did this
already. Like
you know Hollywood does do that.
They will do that, right?
Yeah, they do.
It's like I've already done this. You've
seen me. Why would you even want to see
me do this again?
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. you know. Um, and so
that started happening happening a lot.
And then when I did Empire,
so many other things came out like
Hidden Figures came, Proud M. Like so
many other things came that kind of
Yeah. That kind of got them away from
trying to pigeon hole me, you know what
I mean? And I had to fight for that.
like it was turning down a lot of things
and just like knowing like when you're
trained in theater, you know what a
script should look like. You know, by
page 10, if I'm not feeling something,
nine times out of 10, it's not a good
You know what I mean? So, because I've
studied literature,
I know what a a good script. Now, I
can't control the director or the
direction, but I I I do what I do with
the script, you know, as the actor, and
the rest is up to what y'all do in the
editing room. I have no control over
You know, so um yeah, I think after
Cookie, that's when things like really
changed for me.
Yeah. And you were in not just the
actor's seat, but the producers seat.
Absolutely. You were able to change the
directory. I love seeing you and Tyler
together. Acrimony's also one of my
favorites of yours. I love that movie.
And then now you guys just broke
records. I mean, 50 million views in the
second week for Straw. So,
congratulations on that. But my real
thing with the movie is when I'm
watching it was like this is really a
message of where we are also in the
world right now. Whether you're a
mother, whether you have a sick child,
like what whatever wherever you are, we
all are at that last straw. And we
thought the last straw was, you know,
oh, the convenience store. We kept
thinking it's like, no, the last straw
started at the top.
It start at the beginning.
Um, so what drew you to it? Cuz it's a
very impactful piece and I think
something that again, like I said,
everybody can relate to. It's hard out
here. Mhm. I love Tyler. I really enjoy
working with that man.
Um and he sends me so many scripts, you
know, he's like, I got this and
um you know, I'm really good at knowing
what's good for me and when I when it's
someone else's blessing. I'm really good
with that. It's like I'm like Tyler, I
don't think this is for me. I think this
might be somebody else's blessing. Then
he doesn't stop though. That makes him
go back to the drawer. He came back and
he was like, I think I got one. and I
read it and when I got to I just I don't
know she just spoke to me being a single
mother I just I could relate and not
only that um it's also too about making
people feel seen
you know this is a a woman who just
felt invisible and I know that there are
so many people in the world like that
especially with what we're going through
right now um
you know there's so many that that is
happening to someone right now losing
everything, getting put out of, you
know, their comforts of their home and
their last check and and so I don't
know. I just I just when I read it, I
was like I I could see myself in it and
I just felt for her and I just wanted to
breathe life into her and I called him
and I was like, "Yeah, this is it,
Tyler. You got it."
Oh my gosh, I love that. I mean, there's
this narrative where they always say,
"Oh, films like this are risk, but then
they blow up." And I feel like this
happens a lot with Tyler. So, I'm
curious what you think. What keeps that
myth alive when we actually have direct
examples that people want to see this
Um, Tyler knows his audience clearly.
Everything he drops is is a number one,
but that is like because he has worked
his ass off to garner this incredible uh
fan base.
Yeah. Yeah. And it started on theater
and they just followed him from the
stage onto the big screen.
Yeah. Yeah. I do think it's so
important. I I always use Tyler as a
reference for me. It wasn't necessarily
theater, but with my social media and my
immediate to audience engagement. It
changed my career and it gave me a
direct way to know what they wanted from
me. They knew then what they could ask
for from me. And I think, you know, the
more that people lean into their
audience, the proof is in that pudding.
So, he's a great example of that. We
talked about you moving with $700 in
your pocket with Marcel on your hip to
pursue your dreams. And in your memoir,
Around the Way, girl, you said, "I never
saw my baby as a roadblock to my goals.
I simply started planning and dreaming
about my ways. I would get what I wanted
out of life while I had a baby on my
hip. Having some having my son gave me
laser sharp focus."
Um, and I feel similarly.
Yeah. So, how did having your son really
clarify your purpose and fuel your
ambition? I didn't have time to waste. I
could I wasn't uh I was 26 when I had
Marcel and I moved to LA and I would
often hear, "Oh, girl, you got to go out
cuz that's where the networking
happens." And I'm like, "Explain how
networking is happening in a in a club
when everybody's drunk." What What are
we talking about? I mean, it's crazy
because it really is that really is a
tool for some people that works, but
I've always never been able to really
get to
I'm about that business.
Yeah. I just can do the work.
Yeah. I don't I'm not chasing dreams in
no club where people are drunk, you
know, um reading wrong signals, mixed
signal. I'm just I'm not doing that. Um
I never was that girl. So, you know, I
couldn't go out. I couldn't party. So, I
had to focus. I had to focus on how to
get to this money cuz I want a better
life for my son, you know, and so I I
just it made me more businessoriented,
you know, I didn't have time to play
What would what what a piece of advice
would you give to people like myself
that are in their career, striving,
working at things, but yes, have have
their child, you know, single moms that
are working for their dreams. What's a
piece of advice you would give to any of
us about how to continue to move forward
and and not have that guilt of working
for something for yourself?
Well, you must make your dreams come
true because if you don't, then what are
you teaching your kid?
Um, I always consider my myself a mother
first. I will tell you one thing being a
mother did to me and I know that that's
why I understand my instrument so well
because when I would come home from work
or from the outside dealing with
Hollywood when I crossed that threshold
it became about my son I didn't he don't
understand Hollywood he don't understand
the process of auditioning or getting I
have a science fair project due tomorrow
I am hungry I have the chickenpox I you
know what I mean I have basketball. I
have So, I've learned to turn it. I have
a switch. Literally, I can turn on and
off. And And being a mother allowed me
to do that because again, when I got
home, it was all about him. It had
nothing to do with the outside world.
So, I'm really good at turning that
switch on and off. Literally, I could be
in the scene.
Jesus, cut. So, girl, last night when I
was at the club, you like literally I
can do that. That's an important shift
though because a lot of people don't
know when you're in our industry where
life imitates our art, like when
everything feels so conflated into one
thing, people sometimes don't know
theelves off side of the set.
So to have that differentiation is
definitely crucial.
Baby, when they yell it's a cut or
that's a wrap, that thing stays right
And I go back into being me. I don't
don't call me the character. I do this
every time somebody calls me cookie or
it's like it's not my name.
Oh my god. Come on. That's not my name.
That used to be a jam. That song. Oh my
gosh. Do you think there was a moment
where your son either cuz maybe cuz
based off what you're telling me seemed
like he always just was like that's
mommy. Was there a moment where he was
like oh my mom is Taraji P. Henson. Like
where he was like oh people see you.
Yeah. He grew with me. So he I you know
was so sweet because I would always talk
to you know that's my my best friend.
That's like that's my little person. And
we would always talk and he knew cuz he
grew up around it. He always knew. Um,
and I would always say to him, and he
would be very uh conscious of people
coming up to me in in public, but he
always would hear me, I would tell him,
I be like, I don't want to just be a
black actress. I don't want, yes, I love
my people. I love us, but I want my art
to affect all kinds of people, you know.
And so I remember once I forget what
after which project I had done or
whatever, but we were out and some
non-black people came over and said they
love my work and they knew who I was.
And he was sitting like this and when
they walked away, he was like, "Mom,
they weren't black."
So they those babies, they are paying
attention. They are listening and they
care. Like
they really want what you want.
They want what you want. Exactly.
Oh, it's so sweet. The other day I was
sad. Um, but I wasn't vocal about it,
but I was just I felt sad.
And Leo comes up to me as my son's name
and he says, "Strong mama."
I was like,
"He knows."
It touched me so deep. He said, "Strong,
And I was like, "Yeah,
My baby sees. He deserves to see, like
you said, me chasing my dreams, me
happy, me fulfilling myself, because he
knows I'm a strong mama.
Yeah. And don't hide it from him. Share
that with him.
Yeah. Share that with him.
It's such a blessing. Now, an armchair
expert, you said, "I come with a lot." I
really related to this. I mean, I relate
to so much that you say, "I come with a
lot. If you weren't dating me, you
wouldn't be looked at under a
microscope." Which is a very honest
insight for anybody dating anyone in our
business. How has that saying that or
getting that out at the first stage
helped in your relationships
or give them an insight look at what's
to come?
I just don't like I don't want to
surprise anyone, you know, cuz if first
is infatuation, you know what I mean?
They like what they see. They probably
have fallen in love or fallen in like
with a character that you've portrayed.
So, I got to get through all of that
first. No, I'm not Cookie. I'm not none
of them. I'm me.
Yeah. And it's so weird the characters
that they desire cuz somebody was like
Akquila. I'm like now that's weird.
We're grown,
Like you're like this is the childhood
fantasy, right? Like what's going on,
So, um you know, so it's just getting
through all of that
and can they handle it?
Right. And that's why I'm single. Okay,
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What's a green flag that you maybe
passed up in your 20s that now you're
like, "Oh, this is a go." A green flag
that I passed up in my 20s.
Yeah. Like, you know, sometimes we're
like, "Oh, I don't want the guy that's
blah blah." But like now when we get
older, we're like, "A nerd."
Yeah. The good boys. I was into them.
Let me be quiet.
I'm from
DC. So yeah, I think she said that
should give you a hint. I I think I used
to find myself into aloof people when
it's like you think that makes them
interesting, but it's like no, they just
don't have anything going on, you know?
But you think it's unique.
I like the bad boys.
I was I was into them.
I feel like the bad boys always was
liking me and I'm like I don't want to
go to the trap house again.
You know, I did a few times and it's
like it's boring in there.
Yeah. With a behind you find me.
I love that song.
Well, I was young and dumb. I grew up,
you know.
Yeah. I know. Yeah. I mean, our tastes
change. I was an interview with Sierra
where she's like, "The palette changes."
Absolutely. As you get older, you want
different things out of life.
You want different things.
I love Whoopi's quote where she said, "I
don't want somebody in my house." I
relate to that. I don't want nobody in
my damn house.
Baby, listen to me. Now you're Now
you're talking.
It's so good.
You keep talking about all these
relationships and I'm like what the last
time I had
It's not even that. It's just that I
have fought to find get this peace that
I have.
That's right.
I am I am
and so you I I protect it fierce.
That's right. Fiercely. Even to the
point where it's like, "Hey girl, let's
go out." If I leave my house and go come
to where you are, is that going to
disturb my peace?
Like those are the questions I ask. No,
that is the big question for me and
anything when I'm thinking about dating
is are you going to disrupt the that's
going on over here? Cuz I don't want no
disruption. I'm cool with a getting to
know and an enhancement,
but I don't want any disruption. And
it's like you don't want to be so
stringent because you know that okay
there's some tips and bumps but it's
like I just I rather just be chill with
me. My mom used to always say I could do
bad all by myself.
That part I did a movie.
You know what I mean? But no seriously I
literally rather just be by myself. I
mean cuz I I'm happy.
That's right.
I just remodeled my home.
Fabulous. And the one thing I said was
make it I need to if you know the guy
whoever he is God willing when he comes
over he needs to know this is my house
okay and there is no space for you here
if you spend the night pack your in your
bag the next day and take it with you
cuz I don't even have a drawer for you.
And I feel like that sounds great and
it's f and I and
that sounds great to me. Great.
We can Everything can be fun.
It can be fun. I'll meet you out.
I'll come stay over your house. You can
come stay over mine. D
My house stays clean.
That part.
Yeah, that's how I feel, too. I really
do. You know, I mean, I don't know if
that's just because of what we've
accomplished or anything like that, but
the we've been through, man. Not trying
to do that again.
No, I can't. And you know, once I
realized through therapy that I had um
energy was a I would I would trauma
Not even with like lovers, but like with
And so I've cut a lot of people out of
my life because I f once I realized, oh,
this is a trauma bonding here. Girl, it
is so great what you said about the
friends because we do focus so much on
the relationship stuff where it's like
the friendships sometimes you realize
are facads as well. It's like
absolutely.
Oh babe, I thought that I was being
friends with you, but really you're just
mirroring me. I'm talking to my damn
self. You're an echo chamber,
I'm talk I'm in an echo chamber
because you're not actually reflecting
anything back but me to me.
So what how am I getting fulfilled? Oh,
I'm not getting fulfilled. This whole
time I was being extracted from and
Yes. It's so crazy how that we only
often think about it in relationship but
no it can be in friendships as well and
then you end up finding out that it's
like actually I do prefer my own
company. Let me go to this Michelin star
restaurant and have an experience real
by myself.
You know it's interesting. It really is.
But I do think that when we have these
realizations that maybe Yeah. It does
open up a door for something more
you know to find us.
For sure. I think so.
Yeah. Now, what inspired your talk show,
Peace of Mind?
Um, the urgency to get our community to
talk about mental wealth. Um,
it was like, you know, I felt like the
the the foundation was doing a great
job, but on a larger scale and the
people that we, you know, the people
that we wanted to connect with and
affect, it just wasn't enough. And so I
felt like a talk show needed to happen.
And put a face to it that we all know
and love
and get some other faces in here that
people are familiar with to be like now
if they're struggling, okay, it's okay
to say I'm struggling, you know.
Yeah. I do want to just quickly touch on
the documentary number one on the call
Uh because it was incredible. But one
thing that a lot of my friends and
everybody was talking to me about and
asking me about was why it seemed like
the guys were having a different
experience than the women were having.
And less than focusing on that, I want
to ask you, what do you think the answer
to those things are?
Because it is their experience is
different. They get paid more than us.
Let's just start there. Let's just start
there. They get paid more than us. They
have more opportunities. Um, usually,
you know, things have changed, but as
far as consistency in the workflow, you
know, men just get the opportunities to
be the stars of the movies and then what
do we, the cute wife, the girlfriend,
the, you know, but now you have women
like myself and Kiki taking control and
producing and doing our own. That's what
I was going to say is I think that is
our cuz honestly
I don't know how to make anybody else
change something, but I know what I can
I can do for myself. I mean, TPH I put
it on every morning. These legs are
because of your hair care, you know? So,
it's like And by the way, it was so
crazy when I was thinking about the hair
care. I didn't even know you was doing
hair when you was at Howard making money
in the dorm room. That was so so it's a
full circle thing there. Anyhow, I
wanted to bring that up because I do
think as in our industry a lot of times
we've been in put in this position where
we just got to focus on getting this job
and focus on getting this role and it's
like it gets to a certain point where
it's like
let me be a brand in a business cuz I
can't depend on this one source for
income. So yeah, let me have the hair
company. Let me have this other job. Let
me be the content creator. Let me
diversify so I don't have to sit here
with my hand out.
Well, you must and and in a position of
begging all the time.
Oh my gosh. And I can't I don't do well
like in those positions. I I don't
Absolutely not.
we're viros.
Absolutely.
We don't do that. So,
but it's like, you know, when I seen it,
I was I wanted people to know that's
like, yeah, while these challenges are
very real and true.
Get in the driver's seat and buckle up
that part. Create multiple lanes.
Yeah. Build the doors to open. Don't be
stop knocking at a door.
That's right. That's right. Okay. So,
let me get into this game real quick
because I love playing a game with all
my guests and I mean you just you always
have the answers I feel. So, I wanted to
play a game where it's like what would
Taraji do?
Oh god.
I'm going to give you a list of
scenarios and you're going to tell me
the best way to handle it so we can get
some of this Taraji whips.
Hope I don't get in trouble.
How to recover from texting your ex.
How to recover.
So bad when it happens. Change the
New line. Who this? Period. Okay. The
key to a good thirst trap. The key to a
good th is it a picture or just in
Well, it could be a picture, could be a
video, anywhere where you trying to make
sure the eyes are on the assets.
Well, you have to show the assets,
but leave something to the imagination.
Yeah. Just show tease. Keep it cute.
Go-to bag essentials. What do you always
have in your bag?
A lip therapy.
Cuz we don't want to be cracked and dry.
A lip therapy, a lotion, and some and
some Kleenex for sure.
Keeping the nose clean.
Yeah. And I have a runny eye as well.
Me too. I do too. And it's like I didn't
have a drop shadow when I came in here.
It was just a clean liner. Now I got Now
I got smokey eye.
That's crazy.
You know what I mean? I'm the same way,
girl. Yes.
How to make the first move without
making the first move. I feel like you
would be great at this. How to make the
first move without making the first
Flirt and then make them feel like they
did it all themselves.
I was waiting for you to come over here
after you to show thigh, leg, and wink
everything.
I love that. I think that's like a
really cool thing that I also seen with
my mom does that a lot with my dad. Dad,
hopefully you don't listen to the
podcast and find out the secrets, but
she always does some stuff like that and
it make it seem like it's my dad's idea.
It's like Larry, you didn't come up with
That's right.
He just told you that.
How to deal with a friend who loves to
tell your business. Are we cussing that
She might come up missing
literally. Because why would you tell my
business girl?
Who does that?
Okay. Um, things I learned at 50 that I
wish I learned at 30
to not give a
I do feel it's kicked in a little bit
more than when I was in my 20s, but I
want it to kick into overdrive.
No, no, no, no, no. I I figured it out.
Listen to this. This is real I'm
spitting here.
I I figured it out. God gives you enough
to give until you get to 50. And when
you get to 50, you've run out. Any
people in here 50?
I'm the oldest in this room.
Thank you. Do you give a about anything?
No, she don't.
I don't care.
I known her for a long time. She don't
care about
I really don't care. No, I re like you
know in your 40s you'll say it but you
still kind of care. When you get 50, I
don't give a
Oh my god.
I mean, I really don't. That feels
I don't lose no sleep.
No is my favorite word.
How do we get engaged with it sooner?
You just have to It comes with time.
It comes with time.
I feel it in the reach, but it's just a
little bit away. But, you know,
Yeah, it comes with time.
We'll keep working on it.
I think cuz at 50 you realize you're
closer to the end than you are the
beginning.
So I just can't worry about what other
pe I don't have that kind of time
Sounds blissful.
It's very blissful. Last one. The best
response to a you up text. Are we
getting our freak gone?
It depends on if I want to.
Okay. Yeah.
Okay. So if you want to, what's the
reply? And if you don't want to, I guess
no reply. If I want to. Why aren't you
here yet?
[Laughter]
Now that is so good, right?
Because it's it's it's it's demand. It's
commanding without being demanding.
It's like he on the way.
Yes, girl.
Are you outside yet?
Yes, girl.
Taji, you are everything and more. You
are everything and more.
Oh my gosh. I'm so proud of you. Thank
you so much. I just cannot say
it enough. I mean, because to be a
full-g grown adult in this industry, but
then to grow up in this industry and
weave your way in and out of the bull
and still hold on to yourself,
that's an accomplishment. I'm just
really proud of you. Thank you so much.
You know, I'm trying every day. And when
I look at people like you, it's a great
inspiration for who I can be, what I can
do, and what I can overcome. You know,
it's hard when people place your value
on these things when you know your worth
is so much more. So, I really do
appreciate you.
Yeah, you're so inspirational. I just
love you.
I love you.
Thank you for coming to the show.
Thanks for having me. And I love the
hair color.
Karaji is always good for laughs,
honesty, and a whole lot of wisdom. She
took us from Howard to Hollywood, broke
ground in H figures, and gave us a
cultural icon with Cookie Lion. All
while reminding us that the real flex is
being unapologetic in everything you do.
And now that she's in her 50s, she truly
does not care what anybody thinks. She's
proof that protecting your peace isn't
selfish, it's necessary. You can take up
space and still keep it cute while doing
it. I know that's right. Until next
time, baby. This is Kiki Pong. Baby,
this is this is Kiki.
Baby, this is Kiki P. Yeah.
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