Great Pods
A Conversation with Jim Acosta

Summary

Political Discussion Between Substack Writers
This is a conversation between two political commentators discussing recent developments in American politics, particularly focusing on concerns about democratic institutions under threat. The speakers express worry about various actions including raids on political figures like John Bolton, deployment of National Guard troops in cities, and attempts at electoral manipulation through congressional redistricting.
Key themes include:
Authoritarian concerns: Discussion of militarization in cities, intelligence agency purges, and intimidation tactics
Historical parallels: Comparisons to Reconstruction era and rise of authoritarianism in other countries
Electoral integrity: Worries about gerrymandering and voting rights, particularly affecting communities of color
Mental fitness: Concerns about Trump's psychological state and decision-making capacity
Resistance and hope: Encouragement for peaceful protest and civic engagement, particularly among older Americans
Independent media: Celebration of the growth of independent journalism platforms like Substack as vital for democracy
The conversation concludes on a more optimistic note, with both speakers finding hope in grassroots engagement and the development of what they call a "news community" that values facts and democratic participation. They also briefly discuss environmental issues like invasive species, drawing parallels to political concerns.
Key Points

Seven months on Substack has been transformative, fostering meaningful conversations with figures like Heather Cox Richardson
People are getting fired up about political issues, with protests emerging in DC and other locations
September and October are historically significant months for political pushback, though economic concerns may arise
Government dismantling includes reduced port inspections and internet monitoring, risking invasive species introduction
John Bolton news and Ghislaine Maxwell transcript release appear timed to bury stories on Friday evening
Pentagon's director of intelligence was fired, and intelligence officers are being reduced by 40% under Tulsi Gabbard
Trump's relationship with Putin remains mysterious, with questions about financial ties or compromising material
Current actions appear focused on rigging future elections rather than just retribution against enemies
Russian operatives in 2016 flooded social media and weakened democratic institutions, with similar patterns emerging
National Guard troops are being deployed to major democratic cities with authorization to carry weapons
National Guard re-enlistment rates dropped from 60% to 21% after Los Angeles deployment, showing military resistance
Political encounters with law enforcement make people less likely to vote, affecting democratic participation
Republican Party evolution from opposing New Deal policies to viewing democratic governance as illegitimate
Trump's mental state appears increasingly unstable, with handlers trying to distract him with projects
Congressional redistricting efforts, particularly in Texas, will disproportionately affect people of color
Independent media and news communities on platforms like Substack are creating informed, engaged audiences
Protest movements are being led significantly by older Americans, making them harder to dismiss or suppress
Americans are recreating national community and redefining democracy through new media and grassroots engagement
Full Transcript

Language: en
seven months now of being here on
Substack. I've just loved every minute
of it and talking to so many great
people like Heather Cox Richardson. And
there she is right there. Heather, how
are you? Great to see you again.
&gt;&gt; It's good to see you. How are you doing
down there? Aren't you in Washington?
&gt;&gt; I'm in DC. I took my little dog Duke
over to uh the protest last night that
was here in DC. And people are starting
to get fired up about this stuff.
&gt;&gt; Good. Good. Well, you know, summer is
never uh um are often not a great time
for people to push back against the
administration, but September and
October tend to be biggies.
Unfortunately, they also tend to be the
months when people look at the economy
and realize we're in trouble. So, I'm a
little nervous about that, but
&gt;&gt; yeah,
&gt;&gt; we got no choice but to move forward,
right? No, there's no qu I'm I'm worried
about it, too, because everybody's been
sort of riding high and thinking and
sort of whistling past the graveyard a
little bit and thinking, well, you know,
you know, Trump, he's he's dangerous to
democracy, but as long as we're still
making a buck, everything's okay. And I
just, you know, there's there's just
always a bill to pay. And I sort of feel
like that's coming.
&gt;&gt; I I I can't agree more. And and that's
one of the things that's so incredibly
frustrating. I actually wrote a whole
letter this morning about the the pieces
of our government that have been
dismantled that people aren't paying any
kind of attention to yet. I mean, silly
things like um the idea that there
aren't really people inspecting the
ports and the internet for people to be
importing things like ants into this
country, which is a story Wire did a
couple of days. And you know, most
people aren't walking around thinking
about the invasion of uh exotic species,
but you know, that's how we lost a lot
of the orange crop. That's how we've
lost, you know, a lot of New England to
things like bittersweet or, you know,
all the things that happen when you
import exotics. And that's that bill is
going to come due on somebody else's
&gt;&gt; Yeah, there's no question. And and
speaking of bills coming due, I mean, I
I don't know where to start. I I pinged
you earlier today because of the John
Bolton news and then this Galain Maxwell
transcript news came down and obviously
I mean it's you know this is pretty you
know in in your face in terms of they're
just trying to bury this on a Friday
evening. The fact that she didn't say
anything troublesome about Donald Trump.
I mean no no kidding. That's why she was
moved over to a minimum security
facility. But you know he is they're
trying awfully hard. They're trying so
darn hard to put this thing to rest and
they're just not doing it.
&gt;&gt; Yeah. That's because you know it's on
fire. You just know it's on fire. I
mean, that's one thing that's been
really interesting about Trump is
because he says he blurts out what is
uppermost in his mind all the time. And
I feel like I've spent the last at least
six years looking at the space around
the elephant to try and figure out what
the elephant is. And one of the stories
that is not getting covered today with
the um the raid on John Bolton's house
in office and with the the many other
things that are going on in Washington
DC is the fact that the administration
has just fired the the Pentagon's
director of intelligence
&gt;&gt; and um and Tulsi Gabbard the from the
off the office of the director of
national intelligence has just said
she's reducing um intelligence officers
by 40%.
Unbelievable.
&gt;&gt; And and well, but but like what's going
on with that? Like why
&gt;&gt; I agree with you? I agree with you.
&gt;&gt; Why was Trump so cozy with Putin all the
time? Why when we started talking about
ma about um Epstein did he suddenly
start talking about Russia? I mean, I
don't know the answers to those things,
but you know, it's kind of like you're
trying to watch this, you know, it's
like trying to watch a an
impressionistic painting and think, wait
a minute, what are these dots adding up
to? And I don't see yet what they're
adding up to, but I don't think the
story is just that he is attacking
people he doesn't like. That's part of
the story,
&gt;&gt; but I don't think it's the whole story.
What do you think?
&gt;&gt; Well, I I that's very interesting that
you say that. I mean, sometimes it's
complicated with Trump. Sometimes it's
simple and it's hard to know which is is
is what we're dealing with. I I do
wonder whether it's as simple as John
Bolton has been all over TV the last
couple of weeks trashing Trump after
that ridiculous uh summit with Vladimir
Putin, if you want to call it that, up
in Anchorage, which was a total I mean
just an embarrassment to the country.
And and I just it doesn't sound like
they have much new information on John
Bolton to warrant I I don't know what
judge was hearing this and authorized
this warrant to go and raid John
Bolton's house. Um but Trump has had
this grudge
against John Bolton going back to when I
covered Donald Trump the first time he
was president. I mean John Bolton wrote
that book. It was it was an incendiary
book. He was very tough on Donald Trump
and they tried to stop that book from
being written. I mean, I remember
covering that and it's been this way
ever since. And I just wonder if it was
it was a moment where he just thought,
"Okay, um, time for a new distraction.
He's been all over TV. Let's go get
him." But you might be right. It may
have something. I mean, Trump today was
just holding up that picture with
Vladimir Putin.
&gt;&gt; Yeah. Which was weird.
&gt;&gt; So weird.
&gt;&gt; I'm sorry. It was just weird. Like that
was supposed to be a meeting about FIFA.
and and all of a sudden he's holding up
a picture and talking about how sad he
is that that Putin can't be at at FIFA.
I mean that why why is that uppermost in
his mind?
&gt;&gt; Yeah. I don't know. And
I I've called it the Scooby-Doo mystery
because at some point we're going to
find out that the you know the mask is
going to come off of Old Man Withers at
the haunted amusement park and we're
going to find out what this is. But we
just don't know what it is with Trump
and Vladimir Putin. Is it a financial
thing? Is it compromant as we all
thought it might have been back in 2017?
You know, Trump has over and over again
called it the hoax and the hoax and and
that makes me think that, you know,
maybe there is some fire, not just smoke
when it comes to some of that. I really
don't know. Um, but I I do find raiding
John Bolton's house to be a very
worrisome development. And and and
talking about Vladimir Putin, it reminds
me of what goes on in Putin's Russia.
&gt;&gt; Well, that's just it. I'm less concerned
about what happened in the past than why
he is so obsessed with it going forward.
And it seems to me that what we are
looking at is not just retribution
against enemies, although you know Trump
has said he was going to do that so much
as an attempt to rig the elections going
forward so that he or people like him
stay in power. Because if you think
about what Russian operatives actually
did in 2016, aside from, you know, all
the stories that people heard is we know
that they flooded social media. We know
that they worked to weaken ideas about
American democracy to pit the ends of
the spectrum against the middle so that
they could um could insert somebody like
Donald Trump. And we seem to be getting
rid of all the the guard rails that
could stop that from happening again.
The guard rails that people put in place
after 2016. and then during the Biden
administration. And so when I look at at
the the attempt to intimidate opponents
like Bolton, but also like uh Senator
Adam Schiff of California or um
&gt;&gt; you know um Leticia James, the attorney
general of New York or the or the
governor of the the Federal Reserve
governor um that they went after this
week. That's certainly part of shut up
and do what I say. But it it does seem
to me to be an attempt to guarantee that
um the the not just that but the attempt
to put troops in major democratic cities
which are the center of democratic power
um to to you know really demonstrate
that the administration holds control
over Washington DC. You know that there
are many aspects of this that look like
it's really about destroying our ability
to choose our leaders.
&gt;&gt; Yes. And and I wonder, you know,
Heather, what's on your mind in terms of
that? Because that to me is, you know,
you and I can can say what we want to
say and and and be outspoken and so on.
Um it it it it worries people. It
terrifies people when when National
Guard troops start showing up in
communities. And it was just said today
over at the Pentagon that these National
Guard troops are going to be authorized
to carry their service issued weapons.
um you know that it's you know we can
you and I can say all we want but when
there's a gun in our face that it's a
different story and that worries me
&gt;&gt; and it should worry you. Um I I will I
will just point out that it appears that
the National Guard troops overwhelmingly
don't want to be given these
assignments. They have lives. This is
why they they signed up for the National
Guard not to be deployed in Washington
DC or other cities to, you know,
theoretically police, but mostly they're
standing around the mall and the places
where the tourists are. And we can tell
that, that's not just me talking. We can
tell that because of the re-up rate
after the National Guard was federalized
in Los Angeles. And normally about 60%
of people whose terms of service come up
reinlist. And after that deployment,
only about 21% did. They wanted no part
of it. So that's an important thing to
remember here is this is not a um yet a
military that answers to Donald Trump.
It has been a professional military.
These are very well-trained people who
who volunteered for one reason or
another. Trump is trying to make them
his, but so far that hasn't happened.
&gt;&gt; Yeah, there's no question about it. and
and I I was down in the mall uh
yesterday trying to get a look at all of
this and you know they're walking around
the mall and I I saw two dozen of them
in front of the National
African-American History Museum and I I
was I think mentioning it maybe to April
Ryan or somebody earlier this week. How
would that make you feel if you know
you're seeing National Guard troops from
Mississippi in front of the National
African-American History Museum? My god.
And I just, you know, it makes me wonder
what have we done to allow this to
happen in our country where this is this
is tolerable. This is allowed to happen.
And there's no way a red state governor
would would tolerate this coming from a
a Democrat with Democrat National Guard,
you know, National Guard troops from
Democratic states.
&gt;&gt; No, that's right. Um, and it's it is
worth remembering that political
scientists will tell you that even one
single encounter with a police officer
makes somebody less likely to vote.
&gt;&gt; So, the idea that we're we're seating at
this point, how many um soldiers is it
in Washington DC? I think it's 4,000
right now and soon to go up. Is that
&gt;&gt; I think it's about 2,000
&gt;&gt; 2,000
&gt;&gt; so far, but that was that was as of
yesterday. So, and now it's up to six
states. So you you may I think you may
be right in that it is growing to that
level and when I was talking with Mike
Fenone earlier uh on uh in the last hour
he is saying he's hearing from his
police sources that this is just the
beginning that Trump has no plans of
pulling them out after 30 days and that
these the reason why you have multiple
states involved is that there may be
something of a rotation and that these
rotations are going to continue.
Um, what does he say about how the
people he talks to feel about it?
&gt;&gt; Um, he he said that there's a great deal
of worry inside the MPD right now,
inside the law enforcement community in
Washington DC because they don't want to
be asked to do illegal things.
&gt;&gt; No.
&gt;&gt; And they don't want to be a part of
this. And and I mean cops uh yeah,
there's there's there are problems with
law enforcement in this country, but
what cops want to be part of a police
state? I I mean that that that to me is
the unamerican part of all of this is
that Trump is trying to turn this
country into a police state and it's
count Heather, you know, it's counter to
who we are. It's not who we are. Well,
so you asked how we got here, and I
think it's it's important to realize
that the Republican party has gone in
the 1980s from a time of really
objecting to the idea of the New Deal
and the policies that the Democrats were
advancing to starting to believe that
any kind of democratic governance was
illegitimate. And you know, we could
talk about how that happened, but that
had turned into because democratic
governance is illegitimate, we need to
weight the scales of the country in
order to make sure that Democrats don't
win office. And so you get Citizens
United and the gutting of the Voting
Rights Act and um and the gerrymandering
of states, the severe gerrymandering
that happens after um Barack Obama is
elected in 2008. But now we have gotten
to the point, I think, where the
Republican party, the MAGAS, because
these are not traditional Republicans,
are willing to give up on democracy
altogether and say anybody who wants to
use the federal government for the good
of the American people is a socialist,
is a communist, is, you know, fill in
the blank and therefore they must never
be allowed to rule. And that is exactly
what happened in the United States after
the Civil War during reconstruction when
the then it was the Democrats, they've
switched places. The Democrats
ultimately said, "Listen, we don't care
if you can win office freely and fairly.
We don't believe you have the right ever
to hold office because we don't agree
with your ideas." And we're seeing that
happen at a national level now. And and
I will say one of the things that jumps
out to me is for years people have said
to me and I'm primarily a scholar of
reconstruction and people have said to
me why didn't people fight back and my
answer was always exactly what you
identified. Terrorism works by showing a
gun to a few people and making sure a
lot of people hear about it but also
because people who should have been
paying attention didn't think that was
what was really going on because you
know oh this is about crime. Oh, this is
only about this election. Oh, this is
only about and they didn't pay attention
to the bigger picture. And I really hope
the fact we have social media and that
we're having such fast responses to the
overreach of the Trump administration
will wake people up to the fact it is
now or never if we want to preserve
American democracy.
&gt;&gt; Well, and Trump is saying the the quiet
part out loud or as I sometimes say the
riot part out loud. um when he put out
on Truth Social uh this is just in the
last 24 hours that uh hey big win for
the great state of Texas and he goes I
don't want to read the whole thing cuz
it's so nauseating but he's he
essentially says he wants other states
like Florida and Indiana and others to
jump in and redraw their congressional
maps and he says on top of that if we
stop mail-in voting which is of course
something he's done before um if we do
these two things he says quote we will
pick up 100 more seats and the crooked
game of politics is over. What he's
saying there is basically that democracy
is over. And it's and it's delusional
for him to think that he could pick up a
100 seats without outright cheating. And
I mean this is the should we call this
the big rig? I mean this is Trump. He's
trying to rig the next midterm cycle.
&gt;&gt; Oh, I like that. I like the big rig. But
you also you just had a um an important
word there and that was delusional. The
thing in this that is the real wild card
to me is that Trump is cuckoo for cocoa
puffs. He is not a a you know 40year-old
man who knows what he's doing. It is my
impression that the people in the White
House around him are deliberately
putting in front of him sort of, you
know, real estate things for him to do.
Add a new wing to the White House, you
know, gold everywhere. Walking around on
the top of the White House. today at
that press conference he was talking
about um um redoing the the Kennedy
Center that he was calling the Trump
Kennedy Center. You know, I think
they're trying to keep him busy while
they grab all the centers of power so
that when he can no longer be propped up
behind the Resolute desk. Have you
noticed that he actually sits now behind
the Resolute desk as if he's holding the
rest of the world at bay and doesn't is
not able to engage in conversation. When
that happens, the the game will already
be in play to put somebody else in
there. And one of the things that I hope
those who are huge fans of Donald Trump
recognize is once you have given him
this system, it's there for JD Vance.
It's there for anybody else they choose
to put in there. And those are not the
people that American voters have ever
expressed any great support for. JD
Vance has never had a base.
&gt;&gt; That's exactly right. And and to his
mental state, I mean, I used to tell
people during the first term that he was
crazy like a fox, but I think this time
around it's it's more like crazier than
a house rat. And I think that he is
not fully in control of what he is
doing. And I think you're you're right
on. and and and and they did some of
this to some extent during the first
term where they tried to distract him uh
give him things to do and now it's on
steroids because I I my sense of it is
cuz I witnessed some of this the first
time around is that there are probably
people on the inside who may be just as
as MAGA as he is but are probably
terrified of how bananas he has gotten.
And when he's showing up, what was it
earlier this morning and he had the hat
on that said Trump was right about
everything. It's the president of the
United States.
&gt;&gt; Yes.
&gt;&gt; He looks like he's lost it.
&gt;&gt; Well, totally. And remember, we're
seeing him in his best. We're seeing him
when they have cleaned him up for the
cameras, when they have adjusted his
meds in whatever way needs to be done.
You know, behind the scenes, you know,
it's not pretty. And you know that um
that Steven Miller, the deputy White
House chief of staff, and that Russell
vote from the office of management and
budget are really the ones that are
running the the immigration issues and
the cuts to the US government. Those are
enormously unpopular and they also know
they've got to grab as much power as
they can while he is still upright. But,
you know, I hope this is something that
might, you know, I sort of have given up
on the Republican senators ever
recognizing that they're essentially
just throwing away their own power. But
I do hope they recognize that once this
power goes into the hands of a mad king,
it's also there for the next guy who may
not be so mad but now has that power,
&gt;&gt; right? and somebody like a JD Vance or
Marco Rubio who appears to be so
Mchavelian that he I mean he was very
much an establishment Republican. I mean
he did come up with the Tea Party
movement was very much an establishment
Republican was running as one back in
2016. Remember when he and Trump used to
get into it and and Marco Rubio said
that Trump was a con man. And you're
absolutely right and the the willingness
to sell one's soul for you know it's
it's extraordinary to me and and to go
back to what you're saying about Tulsi
Gabber trying to clear out 40% of the
people at the director of national
intelligence. These are the people
Heather you and I both know this all too
well. This office was created to prevent
another 911.
&gt;&gt; Yeah. Yeah.
&gt;&gt; It was be Yes.
&gt;&gt; No, the but the the the because we're
probably driving people over the edge.
It is worth pointing out that there are
there it's worth remembering Trump is
bonkers and that these moves are deeply
unpopular and that Trump is also
frustrating the business community which
is really important. We know from the
rise of the Nazis that which way the
business community jumps is really
important and he's been taking cuts of
all these different companies. There was
yet another one today, which is
essentially um a form of state
capitalism as opposed to the free
markets that business tends to like. But
you can also tell that protesters are
really getting under at least Steven
Miller's skin from the fact he melted
down the other day with the comments
about the aging hippies. It's important
that it's older white people out there
because it's very hard to call out
troops to attack old white people. And
that's actually something I'm really
proud of protesters for doing is getting
out there and and saying, you know,
&gt;&gt; we think in America of protest as being
a young person's game, but there's no
reason to think that. Older people have
been involved in protests for a long
time. And this time around, it seems
like they're in the forefront. And that
really really matters because Steven
Miller can't portray, you know, somebody
in their wheelchair as uh the kind of
racist uh takes he takes on um on on
people of color.
&gt;&gt; No, you're absolutely right. And I I um
took my little dog Duke up to a protest
here in DC last night and you're
absolutely right. There were some senior
citizens out there and I was so proud of
them and they had some of the feistiest
signs, too. I mean, there was there were
a couple of really good ones. One of
them was about how, you know, the the
the presence of the National Guard was
definitely a distraction from the
Epstein files. And, you know, I love
that there you see Epstein files,
released the Epstein file signs all over
DC now. And a lot of the protests,
you're right, are are baby boomers who
are getting out there and and doing it.
And I and for the folks who are out
there, because I I see this from time to
time, Heather, and I I think you do as
well. People want to know what can they
do? How can they get involved? get out
there and protest. The protest I saw was
perfectly peaceful last night. The DC
police cordoned off a couple of block
radius around what was taking place.
There were little kids dancing in the
street. No trouble whatsoever. And we
just need more of that. Kind of like a
happy people power energy.
&gt;&gt; We definitely need more of that. I would
also urge people to um to really put
pressure on Congress over voting rights
because I really think this is what's
going on as an attempt to rig our v
voting system. And with Congress coming
back into session on September 2nd,
clearly the fight over redistricting is
going to be on the table. And I mean
making sure your Republican
representatives both at the national
level but also at the state level in
those states you mentioned Texas,
Indiana, Florida, Ohio, the places where
Trump is putting pressure here that this
is something that is deeply unpopular
because it is even Republicans don't
like gerrymandering. They, you know, we
would like to have this straightened out
around the country. And I and I do think
there is one thing about the baby
boomers and that's that if you are under
probably 55, you don't remember a time
when American democracy worked. If you
are over 55, you feel like what was our
birthright has been taken over by this
very small group of radical extremists
that is trying to destroy democracy. And
so I think one of the reasons so many of
us are out there is because we can sit
there and say, "Hey, we remember the way
it used to work when Congress would
would compromise and you would get deals
that actually worked for the American
people." And that's something that if
you're, as I say, if you're younger than
50 anyway, you don't remember when
politics wasn't the Republicans simply
playing it as a as an all or nothing
game in which they were the ones who got
to call all the shots.
&gt;&gt; That's such a great point. And the other
thing that you are thinking back to your
your um expertise on reconstruction, I
have to ask this question and and
forgive me if it's a question that
can't, you know, be um totally answered
with any, you know, 100% certainty, but
the way that the Republicans are trying
to redraw these congressional maps,
particularly in Texas, but I would have
to assume in Ohio and Indiana, wherever
else they do it, is going to take uh
congressional seats away from people of
color. And I wonder if we have seen it
to this degree since reconstruction.
&gt;&gt; Well, I mean that this is what the
Voting Rights Act of 1965 was designed
to combat, of course. So since 1965, no.
And John Roberts, who is the chief uh
justice of the Supreme Court, has made
it his life's work to get rid of the
Voting Rights Act of of 1965. So really
since then, we have not seen it. But one
of the things that I think is important
when you think about reconstruction and
again in the present is the degree to
which the radical extremists have made
poverty and
people of color and women the same
thing. It's two sets of language to say
those people should not vote. So when in
Texas for example they can say this is
not about race, this is only about
partisan gerrymandering which the
Supreme Court has blessed um that that
doesn't preclude the fact that the Texas
gerrymander makes a white vote
significantly more powerful than a black
or brown vote or so so that um that
unity of the way we talk about um race
and class in the United States matters
and it actually comes out of
reconstruction when after the 15th
amendment in 1870 and the establishment
of the Department of Justice in 1870, it
became a federal crime to discriminate
against black men at the voting places
um on the grounds of race. Right. But as
soon as that happens in 1871, uh former
Confederates, especially in South
Carolina, begin to say, "Hey, we don't
have any problem with anybody's race.
Our problem is that these people are
poor and they're trying to to elect
people who will put down roads and build
schools and build hospitals and that can
only be paid for with tax dollars paid
for by property owners. And since only
white people own property in the post
civil war south, this is a
redistribution of wealth from white
people to black people. And it is a
form, they said, of socialism. And it's
important to think about that word
socialism in the United States as a
political term, not as an economic term.
It means we don't want poor people,
especially poor people of color to vote.
Similarly, when they start talking about
capitalism, capitalism as opposed to
capital or capitalists, they start doing
that after this period in which they
start talking about socialism as poor
people voting and they talk about how
America should be about capitalism. And
now of course we understand that as an
economic term, but what they were saying
at the time was that the people who
should be running the government are
people with money. And that's a that's a
really important dis and of course they
were all white men. So there's this
weird overlap that also is kind of a a
loophole that lets somebody like uh the
people under Nixon talk about busing
rather than talking about race, you
&gt;&gt; Right. It's coded. It's coded language.
&gt;&gt; Coded. That's the word. Coded. And and I
mean I I spoke with Congressman Greg
Casar of of Texas. He represents Austin
and or an Austin based district. And you
know he will lose his seat. Latino
member of Congress. He's going to lose
his seat as a result of this. And and
there are other uh uh members of
Congress of color who are going to go
through the same thing. And I don't see
how John Roberts can can live with
himself. I don't see how he can live
with himself if you take away the Voting
Rights Act. If you strike down the these
these very critical civil rights laws of
the 1960s, I mean, of course, this is
what everybody predicted was going to
happen and now it's starting to happen.
They will say it's political
redistricting, but they're they're
taking power away from people of color.
&gt;&gt; But but Jim, this is the plan.
&gt;&gt; Yeah. So, you know, think about what
Peter Teal wrote years ago about how
democracy and capitalism couldn't
coexist after women after the 1920s when
women and people of color got the vote.
There's two ways to think about the way
government should work in the United
States of America. And one is that we
are all created equal and we have a
right to have a say in our government to
be treated equally before the law and
have equal access to resources like
health care and education and the raw
materials we need to have jobs and
things like that. And then there's
another way to think about it and that's
when you think that there are some
people who are better than others and
have the right to rule. And if you
believe that, then you believe that the
kind of democracy I just described, the
democracy that is laid out in the
Declaration of Independence is ruining
that system. It's poisoning that system.
And you need to get rid of it in order
to make sure those, you know, wealthy,
educated, just better people would be
able to rule. And this is where we are
now in this moment with Donald Trump.
Remember, he's going to have the best
people running his administration. And
if you listen carefully, you will notice
that there is a very strong overlap
between that argument I just made and of
course the enslavers of the pre-Ivil War
years, but also with fascism because if
some people are better than others, by
definition, one people's person is going
to be better than all the rest and he's
the one who should dictate to the rest
of us. And now we've come full circle to
what's happening in Washington DC.
&gt;&gt; No, you're right. And I don't see how
anybody could argue that Steven Miller
is the best of us. I mean, I you know,
is anybody really going to make that
argument with a straight face? Any
Republican or Democrat going to make
that argument with a straight face in
this country? And I I I think you're
absolutely right. And, you know, it
makes me, you know, it makes me want to
say that what we're experiencing right
now is is fascism. Um, right in my
neighborhood, uh, there's a free book
box and on the door of the free book box
is a note that says what to do if you're
stopped by ICE.
Has nothing to do with the free books in
the book box, but it's a little note
that they they hope that the person just
casually walks by will read. And are we
at that point now, Heather, where we're
having to send little coded messages of
survival to one another? I don't want my
home, this is my hometown. I don't want
Washington DC to become a police state.
But I don't know how just me, myself,
this one individual person right here
can stop that from happening. And I'm
deadly serious about this. I and I'm
very passionate about this. It it pisses
me off to no end that this is happening
to my hometown.
Uh, yes. I I'm I'm an annoying stickler
in that there are hallmarks of the
economic system of fascism that I
actually don't think we're seeing in the
United States right now.
&gt;&gt; Um, not that that matters. It's just
it's a sticking point for me. I would
say authoritarianism
because in that case, instead of having
this at least idea of a corporate
oligarchy, you have personal rule. And
that is that doesn't matter to you and
me at all. The effect is the same. It's
still a police state. Um but that's why
I've been reluctant to use the word
fascism. Are we there? 100%. We are
absolutely there. We're in what um uh
political scientists like Steve Leky
call competitive authoritarianism where
the elections will be held because the
authoritarian wants the legitimacy of an
election. The way Vladimir Putin holds
elections or the way Victor Orban in
Hungary holds elections. but they are
not competitive because of the the
administration's control of the media
and having police at the polls and so on
and and fear of arrest. Now, all that
being said, the game's not over yet. You
and I are sitting here talking. These
are enormously unpopular positions. The
American people hate them. We are not
used to being told what to do by our
governments. And at the same time, if
you think about the rise of somebody
like Hitler or even Orban,
&gt;&gt; um the they rose, I shouldn't have put
Orbon there because his real issue was
um about immigration, but they rose at
times when the the economy was really
terrible. Now, if you think about Trump
in this administration, the economy was
booming. He's the one who has destroyed
it. And you hear him trying to say, "No,
no, the economy is really good." Well, I
don't know about you. I went and bought
coffee the other day at the supermarket
and you just about had a coronary. I
don't know how you miss that the that
the prices are going up and the tariffs
haven't really hit yet, you know,
because they really only went into
effect in August.
&gt;&gt; So, the even the people who have
supported Trump in the past are wavering
on him or against him. His numbers are
very low. And we still have Epstein out
there, which is what brought the QAnon
people to him. And the QAnon voters, I
think, made up about 21% of his base. I
could be wrong. Somebody should check me
&gt;&gt; Pretty darn close to that. That's
exactly right.
&gt;&gt; But the way we push back is we stop
believing everything he says. We stop
assuming he has power he does not. We
push back in every possible way. We
celebrate the victories that we have had
like the closing of the um detention
facility in the Everglades and the
release today of Abra Kilmargo Garcia.
We we keep reiterating that in the
United States of America, our democracy
says that we the people are running this
government. It is our power and we put
pressure on our electeds again from the
town level to the state level to the
federal level to say we are not going to
put up with this and recognize that it's
going to take some time and you got to
build communities and if you need to
look away you can look away. But if we
continue to hold tight to our principles
and if we continue to express those
through art and literature and community
and pushing back on on the government's
overreach, you know, will we come out of
it? Yes. And with luck, we will come out
of it better than we went in because
like I say, it hasn't been working real
well for the last 40 years.
&gt;&gt; No, that's you're absolutely right about
that. And I think that, you know, uh,
Trump likes to rattle our cages. There's
no question about it. But he also is a
motivating force.
And I get the sense that people are
feeling dejected. They're feeling
defeated. They they they have what I
used to call Trump depression. You know,
for as much as people worry about Trump
derangement syndrome, I say Trump
depression syndrome is a much more
worrisome thing. And I think people have
succumbed to it. I think people are
coming out of it. And I do think that
the wild card in all of this is Jeffrey
Epstein. And they can put out this, you
know, Galain Maxwell transcript on a
Friday afternoon and try to sell it on
Fox News and MAGA, but they just need to
know. They just need to know over the
DOJ and down at the White House that the
their own people are not buying it. When
Gla Maxwell tells Todd Blanch whatever,
oh, it's extraordinary that he's become
the president and he always treated me
in such a nice manner. Nobody believes
&gt;&gt; No, that's right. And and again, we we
had that happen to us with um Bill Barr
and the the pre-ereading of the uh
Mueller report. So, we've been here
before. I would say that that is a wild
card, but I do think Trump's mental
health is another big wild card because
even if you're MAGA, like you say, even
if you're a loyalist in the
administration, the fact that he has
command of the US military and the
nuclear football and you know, he's
making noises about attacking a Mexico
and Venezuela. Um, and the the concept
and he's talked about that before, but
you know that's cause for war and that's
not I mean it's a war of choice in a
really weird way. You know, you've got
to be sitting there thinking
I it's time to think of other options.
um you know to see if we can ease him
out, get him to retire, get him to
rebuild another building or something
because yeah um because he is regardless
of whether you like him or not, he
remains the most powerful man in the
world and he is bonkers and that's that
is something that gets me um really
concerned because we're all pretending
he's okay and he's not. All you have to
do is watch one of these interviews and
you think
&gt;&gt; who who wears a hat that says I'm right
about everything.
&gt;&gt; The hat was the hat was batshit crazy.
And the way he talks about fixing the
grasses in Washington DC. I just to me I
just I challenge anybody on any bar
stool in Lincoln, Nebraska to put that
up on full blast on your 50in LCD TV and
in and absorb him saying that and ask
yourself isn't he crazy?
How can he not be cuckoo for cocoa
puffs? As you said earlier, the other
thing too that I think is a tell and you
have to sometimes be very this is my
observation having covered Trump up
close for some time. There are tells not
just from him but from his people. But
when Pam apparently Pam P Pam Bondi was
on Fox last night and she was also
talking about fixing the grass in DC
which means that there's a fair amount
of just sort of placating trying not to
disturb the the the wild bird. you know,
there I that it's so funny that you you
mentioned that earlier about giving him
projects like fixing up a ballroom or
putting up gold leafing in the Oval
Office and so on. Be I think that does
indicate that what's going on behind
closed doors is just the madness of King
&gt;&gt; Well, and the and the what's interesting
about it is the parallels to an abusive
family because doesn't he feel like the
crazy um
&gt;&gt; Yes. the, you know, the the guy who
would just will fly off and start
causing trouble and hurting people and
so everyone's kind of tiptoeing around
him and trying to give him make work and
say nice things. Look, here's a nice hat
that says you were right about
everything, you know, let's talk about
grass. And and again, it's it is a very
sad situation,
you know, for for every the entire
world. But it does suggest that um you
know the only way out is to take back
our power and say no, we're not going to
put up with this. And you know, we don't
care if Steven Miller is getting all
weepy about the 90-year-old hippies. Um
but we're going to be insisting.
&gt;&gt; He really doesn't like those hippies.
&gt;&gt; No, he does not. He does not. And here's
a news flash. We're not all 90, you
know. Um but uh
&gt;&gt; Good point. Some of us wear black polos,
by the way. But anyway,
&gt;&gt; that's right. Exactly. But so, you know,
it's it's just a weird time for America.
I will tell you that one of the things
that is um interesting for me is I write
about it every day. I read all day and I
write all day
&gt;&gt; and sometimes when I write,
&gt;&gt; the story turns out to be different than
I thought it was. So, like this whole
thing that I'm talking about now about
the firing of the intelligence agents
and the firing today of the head of the
Pentagon intelligence division or
whatever it's called. I'm sorry. I don't
have the name in front of me. and you
know all that stuff. I did not think
that was today's big story. But then
when I put it in there and thought, why
are we talking about Donald Trump and
Putin in this photograph from Putin and
why are we firing all these people and
why is he going after as he did in July
James Comey and and John Brennan who
were the heads of the FBI and the CIA
during the Russia investigation. And I
thought, you know, I don't know if
that's a story or not, but I do know
that there's an awful lot of material on
it that feels like shouldn't be there if
the real story is a simple straight shot
to authoritarianism.
&gt;&gt; Yeah. And and Heather, I think what
should give us a little bit of hope is
that when they're firing 40% of the
workforce at the Defense Intelligence
Agency or the Director of National
Intelligence or wherever, it tells you
that there's still good people working
in our government. And I talk about this
with my friend Olivia Troy and Miles
Taylor from time to time. They're
absolutely convinced that there are
still some good people in the battles of
the government in important places who
are hearing these conversations, picking
up on this stuff. I mean, I we hear
stories all the time privately about
when people go into meetings with Cash
Patel and various officials of the
government, they got to turn in their
phones. Uh they're being asked to sign
NDAs. This this banana stuff is still
going on in Trump 2.0. And if they're if
they're trying to eliminate these good
people at these various agencies, it
tells you that there are still good
people there who who can be witness to
this. And for when there is an
accountability moment in this country,
those people can step forward. And I I I
try to have some hope that that may
still happen.
&gt;&gt; Yeah. And and the other piece of that I
I think that's important. The other
piece of that is once they're out,
they're on the outside. And those of us
who are on the outside, you know, one of
the things that I look at is again this
is a really big country which I think
matters when you think about the rise of
authoritarianism because it's really
hard to stamp down on 341 million people
as opposed to Germany before World War
II. You know, there's a lot of us. And
if you think about the quality of the
people who are standing against the
Trump administration versus those who
are on the inside, you know, I I think
that the system, the way the Republicans
set it up for 40 years, enabled the
takeover by this radical group of
extremists, this very small group of
radical extremists. But then I think
about the people outside and I think
really, you know, really are you going
to take a look at the extraordinary
talent outside the government and say
that it is ultimately going to be beaten
by Steven Miller.
&gt;&gt; Right.
&gt;&gt; And and that's a hard it's it just
doesn't it just doesn't seem to work.
&gt;&gt; Yeah. That's right. That's right. And
and and and I finally uh Heather and and
we can keep going. Whatever you want to
talk about, we can talk about.
The last time we spoke, you coined a
term that I really I fell in love with
and I've been thinking about ever since,
and that is a news community. And I sort
of think that's what we're part of here
um on social media in independent media.
And it it's something that just needs to
be fostered and encouraged. It was kind
of depressing to me to watch the
coverage around the Anchorage Summit
because it was treated as if it was
normal. it was normalized and sanitized
as if we what we were watching was
something that was normal when it
wasn't. Um, and then after it was over,
it was everybody realized, oh, this was
a joke. But there were plenty of us
going into this who thought this is a
joke. But I I think having independent
media and and and the rise of it is such
a healthy thing for this democracy. And
I know people are worried that this is
all going down the tubes and stuff, but
I do see this one thing as as being a
point of light.
&gt;&gt; Oh, I agree. And and it's been long
overdue. But remember, we didn't have
that independent news community in the
in the first term at all.
&gt;&gt; Um, if you think about Substack, I
started on Substack. I started on
Facebook first
&gt;&gt; in September of 2019. And when I went
into Substack, I was one of the first
people on it. They came to me because
they were starting up. Now look at it
and look at the literally millions of
people that get their news um from
really good news purveyors that that um
are writing in different places. And one
of the things that jumps out to me about
that is so many times people say to me,
"Well, I really don't understand this
stuff. I really don't care about
politics." And I think you're reading
Joyce White Vance. You're reading Chris
Gner. You know, those are not easy
reads. and um you're reading uh uh Paul
Krogman every day, you know, those are
not easy reads, but it feels easier in
part because there isn't crap there all
around them that you don't care about.
&gt;&gt; Um and if you read me, and you know,
millions of people do, and they say,
"Oh, well, you just make it easy. I
really don't understand this stuff." And
I have to laugh because if you read me,
you are reading the equivalent of five
350 page books a year on history and
politics. Now, how much of an expert
reads five 350 page books on any subject
at all every year? So, in a way, I think
feel like we have not only created a
news community, but we have fed this
incredible hunger for real news that's
out there and we've created a community
that cares about reality again, which
was always the plan, right? create real
a reality based community and then
people will vote intelligently not
necessarily the same way you will that
doesn't that's not the point.
&gt;&gt; Yeah.
&gt;&gt; But if they vote with a regard for what
facts are and what truth is they will
vote in ways that are correct for them.
And that at the end of the day is the
goal of democracy. So it's an exciting
time for all that's also a frightening
&gt;&gt; Yeah. There's no question about it. And
and if folks don't look too far down
their nose at us video folks, video
purveyors here on Substack, I would be
uh very appreciative of that. But, you
know, because I I I do think there is
just such a benefit in having these
kinds of conversations. I think um
they're they're just so valuable in that
um there's a community aspect to it. And
I know maybe you occasionally look down
at the messages. I look down at the
messages and it it's just it warms my
heart to know that people are are so
engaged and they care so much. And that
tells me that we're not we're not going
down the tubes just yet. You know,
Steven Miller can call us hippies and,
you know, get red in the face and, you
know, whatever is happening with his
hair can do what it's doing. But um but
I I I I you know I started off this hour
not having a whole lot of hope and now
I'm ending it with some hope. So thank
&gt;&gt; Well, feels good.
&gt;&gt; And think about it now that we don't now
that we're not filtered by our
professions or our bosses or whomever we
have developed all these relationships
and friendships. So that I think shows
and I think it shows that we are part of
a national community. I I wish it will
not be me, but um I wish somebody would
be watching the growth of this because
there there is going to be a great book
to be written about how Americans
recreated a national community and how
they came to define America in a new
way. We're not quite there yet, but we
will be. And I think about my period um
the late 19th century when they did this
to create the progressive era and and I
realize we're in it and I wish I had the
time and the perspective to be taking
notes on it to watch how it's going to
develop because it's going to be one
hell of a story.
&gt;&gt; Yeah. No, there's no question about it.
I mean, you know, uh the muckreers that
we used to study of of that area that
era and and shortly after that era
began. I mean, we're we're kind of in
that new age of whatever this is of
media and it's just starting and it's
just getting going and it just it feels
great to be a part of and uh always
wonderful to have these conversations
and connect with you and I just hope we
can keep doing it. I I we ping each
other and I I reached out to you and
said can we do this and then you were
asking me about the sturgeon and I was
like well I'm more of a Chesapeake Bay
guy. I like blue crab and rockfish and
we got to get to it. Made me put me in
the mood for seafood. Honestly, what we
need to do is get together and have some
&gt;&gt; Well, the story behind that for people
listening is that where I kayak um we
are seeing sturgeon for the first time
in a very long time. And if you've never
seen a sturgeon, I urge you to go on
YouTube and watch it what it looks like
when a sturgeon jumps because that
sucker's not messing around. And I was
so excited. I told Jim, I'm like, you
know, we could talk about sturgeons
because I was out yesterday and there
was a 4-footer that jumped right near my
kayak and it's really cool. It's really
cool, but it's really spooky. I mean,
it's almost as long as my kayak.
&gt;&gt; The freaky fish that they have around
here in the PTOAC, they have these snake
head fish that there's they're freaks of
nature in that they they look like
snakes and that they can briefly go on
land and then go back in the water and
survive. For folks who want to look that
up, it's a it's a weird thing. They're
an invasive species and they've been
telling people, "Please catch them and
eat them. We don't care. Whatever size
they are, just please pull them out of
of the PTOAC River." And so, I would
don't recommend eating stuff out of the
PTOIC River, but they have said,
&gt;&gt; "If you catch these snakehead fish,
please dispose of them because they've
been wreaking havoc here." But
&gt;&gt; I'll have to look them up. But there we
go. Now, we went full circle back to the
the fact that people aren't being able
to keep out exotic species. So,
&gt;&gt; I know it's Well, it's so true. And
we've got these little bugs, too. these
little redbellied beetles uh that are
wreaking havoc here in DC and they've
been telling people to stomp on them and
I you know I'm kind of I feel I mean I
will kill a horsefly. I will do that cuz
I can't have them in the house but I do
feel bad stepping on a beetle out in
public but they're telling people to
kill those little buggers. So anyway,
&gt;&gt; well that's what we can start our new
movement on, you know, getting rid of
the invasive species. But a sturgeon is
not invasive and they're really
impressive.
&gt;&gt; That's true. That's true. But if you
look at these little beetles that I'm
talking about here, they almost look
like they have a little red MAGA hat on.
But anyway, I won't I won't I won't
I won't expand that analogy too further.
But uh Heather, great to see you.
&gt;&gt; It's always a pleasure. Let's do it
again soon. Jim,
&gt;&gt; thanks for putting up with my corny dad
jokes. All right, great to see you.
&gt;&gt; Talk to you later. And take care.
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